Day 140 and counting

[Greg5280]

Newbies,
If you are having trouble staying quit or deciding if you want to quit then read the article below.

Make sure you pay attention to the tactics used by Big Tobacco... For fuck sake sending kids ( 9, 10, 11...years old ) free cans ? Making Cherry flavored tobacco with less Nic so the kids could " get used" to the product.

Hard to believe I gave those fucks as much of my money as I did.. NEVER AGAIN FOR ANY REASON !!!


Tobacco Company Pays $5M In Groundbreaking Case

Settlement is nationÂ’s first involving smokeless product
By THOMAS B. SCHEFFEY

Kelly June Hill, Executrix, et al. v. U.S. Smokeless Tobacco: The Altria Group, successor to tobacco marketer United States Smokeless Tobacco of Greenwich, has settled for $5 million a lawsuit filed by the estate of a North Carolina man who died of tongue cancer.

The worker, Bobby Hill, initially went to an Ashville, N.C., lawyer, who referred his case to BridgeportÂ’s Koskoff, Koskoff  Bieder. Partners Antonio Ponvert III and Christopher Bernard launched a state court wrongful death action in Connecticut.
From the beginning, Ponvert said, Hill and his family wanted to draw attention to the danger of “dipping snuff” and to discourage youngsters from starting its addictive use.

“It’s the first time a plaintiff has won a wrongful death chewing tobacco verdict or settlement in the history of the industry,” said Ponvert. Altria, based in Richmond, Va., also owns Philip Morris, and has a corporate policy of not settling any individual consumer cases, he added. Altria Group spokesman Steve Callahan said, “U.S. Smokeless Tobacco is honoring an agreement it made in this case prior to its acquisition by Altria….We have no current intention to settle cases like this in the future.”

Historically, the tobacco industry has fiercely defended itself in the courts. And for decades, it denied that tobacco is addictive or a health risk. More recently, it has maintained that people know the risks of tobacco and they should take personal responsibility if they use it. In the industry, a no-settlement rule is standard.

But Bobby Hill, said Ponvert, “was an almost ideal client. Bobby Hill was 13 years old when he started using. He became addicted to this product when he was a child, long before warning labels were put on [packages] in 1987.” That fact, Ponvert said, “destroyed any personal responsibility-type defense that the industry likes to use.” The defendant retained five defense firms, including New York-based Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher  Flohm, and Winston  Strawn, with local counsel duties handled by Wiggin and Dana, in New Haven.
Attorney David S. Golub, of StamfordÂ’s Silver, Golub  Teitel, has handled other lawsuits against the tobacco industry, and was clearly impressed by the Altria settlement.

“This is unprecedented and amazing. There has never been, to my knowledge, a time when a tobacco company has settled a case. It’s fabulous lawyering, and a wonderful result,” Golub told the Law Tribune. “Every tobacco company fights tooth and nail, because they’re afraid that if they settle one case, they can never again say they won’t settle. This is groundbreaking.”

Smokeless tobacco, or snuff, comes in small cans and is sold under brand names such as Skoal or Copenhagen. It comes in a variety of “cuts,” which describe the lengths of the tobacco strands. The tobacco sits between the user’s cheek and gum. It’s different from chewing tobacco, which is a much longer cut that is literally chewed.

One previous snuff case has gone to trial. An Oklahoma plaintiff, Sean Marsee, contracted mouth cancer in the late 1980s after five years of chewing tobacco use, and USST medical experts testified that tumors caused by “dipping snuff” took 20 years to develop. The suit seeking $147 million resulted in a defense verdict for USST.

“Bobby Hill used for 20 years, so we would have been able to use their experts in the Marsee case against them here,” said Ponvert. The attorney said the needs of Hill’s widow and two children, 11 and 14, made a settlement for $5 million seem like a wiser course than holding out for more at trial – or maybe nothing. The process of reaching the settlement stage was long and rocky, requiring extensive discovery work and research.

In a 2002 deposition, USST Chairman and CEO Louis Bantle was questioned in another case, and he explained why some 12 million documents in USST files were stamped confidential. Under oath, he conceded they didn’t contain formulas or other business secrets. “A couple of years ago,” Bantle said, “a whole lot of lawyers came to company headquarters and they stamped ‘confidential’ on every single document we had in our possession, whether they were or not.” Ponvert said discovery was challenging, “for the opposite reason one would think.” The plaintiffs “got half a million pages of documents, which made searching them quite interesting. We found some stuff that was out of this world.”

Letters From Children
Some of the most significant material, said Ponvert, was in a cache of internal correspondence from young customers, aged 9 to 18, written between1978 and 1985. “We found about 50 letters from children to the company, and children’s letters would say, `I am 9 [or 10, 11, 14 or 15] years old, and have been using your product.” The kids had complaints and suggestions. “One was, ‘Please don’t raise the price on Skoal, because I only get $5 in allowance, and can’t afford the seven cans a week that I need,’” Ponvert recounted. “They’d say, ‘I really like the mint flavor, could you make it in a different cut?’

Those letters would be sent to the United States Smokeless Tobacco headquarters in Greenwich. According to the lawyers, a letter would be back to the child saying: “Thank you for your comments. We’ll consider your suggestions, and here are five free cans of Skoal.” After it became illegal to send tobacco to children in the late 1980s, the company sent young teens complimentary can openers and lids to keep their snuff moist and fresh.

Company correspondence supported a plan to introduce candy-flavored Skoal “Bandits” to hook young customers. “Bandits” are ground tobacco and flavorings placed in a tea bag-like fabric, with less nicotine so the beginner wouldn’t get too sick, Ponvert said.

“They had this very Machiavellian strategy to entice people into the market and keep them as they became more tolerant to the drug,” he said. “It’s well known that the average age for starting to use smokeless tobacco is between 9 and 11 years old. So it’s a product that’s designed for kids, and is being used by and sold to kids.”

Altria Group obtained USST in 2009. On the Altria web site, the company emphasizes its commitment to prevent underage children from purchasing tobacco products. Its charts show the use of smoking tobacco products is declining. However, smokeless tobacco products remain popular, and may be on the rise, the charts indicate.
In some quarters, smokeless tobacco is touted as a less-lethal way to consume tobacco than smoking. But, Ponvert said, young people need to comprehend fully the potentially gruesome results.

“One of our experts described dying by mouth cancer as `death by autopsy,’” Ponvert said. “Literally, over a 10- or 12-month period, your face just falls away. At first, [Hill] lost part of his tongue. Then they took his whole tongue. Then it takes part of your jaw, and your cheeks and your gums. Then the tumor wound its way around his carotid artery and he died.” •

Here is some sobering reading for anyone who thinks quitting is a bad thing.

[Greg5280]

Here is a new batch of quotes from the death dealers at Big Tobacco. Newbs, if you ever doubted that you were targeted at a young age you can remove those questions, you were !! Their product was enhanced to hook and keep you. Their marketing was aimed at you early in life.

When you struggle to remain quit, come to this page and study how big tobacco operates. Notice the language used and decide no matter what you will never give another cent of your money to these people.

They sell a product that kills its consumers. They know it, and the plan for it. " lost through normal attrition" that means replacing customers who died...

NEVER AGAIN FOR ANY REASON !!


Philip Morris (Marlboro, Virginia Slims, Benson  Hedges)
"Smoking a cigarette for the beginner is a symbolic act. . . . 'I am no longer my mother's child, I'm tough, I am an adventurer, I'm not square.' . . . As the force from the psychological symbolism subsides, the pharmacological effect takes over to sustain the habit."
1969 draft report "Why One Smokes" to the PM board of directors prepared by Osdene'department. Document Bates No. 1003287836

"Long after adolescent preoccupation with self-image has subsided, the cigarette will even preempt food in times of scarcity on the smoker's priority list."
November 26, 1969 presentation to the PM Board of Directors, "Smoker Psychology Research."
Bates No. 1000273741

"We are not sure that anything can be done to halt a major exodus if one gets going among the young. This group follows the crowd, and we don't pretend to know what gets them going for one thing or another . . . Certainly Philip Morris should continue efforts for Marlboro in the youth market, but perhaps as
strongly as possible aimed at the white market rather than attempting to encompass blacks as well."
July 1974 Roper Organization report for Philip Morris, "A Study of Smoking Habits Among Young
Smokers." Bates No. 2024921279

"Marlboro's phenomenal growth rate in the past has been attributable in large part to our high market penetration among young smokers ... 15 to 19 years old . . . my own data, which includes younger
teenagers, shows even higher Marlboro market penetration among 15-17-year-olds."
May 21, 1975 report " The Decline in the Rate of Growth of Marlboro Red" from PM researcher
Myron E. Johnston to Robert B. Seligman. Bates No. 2022849875-9880

"It is important to know as much as possible about teenage smoking patterns and attitudes. Today's teenager is tomorrow's potential regular customer and the overwhelming majority of smokers first begin to smoke while in their teens. . . . The smoking patterns of teen-agers are particularly important to Philip
Morris. . . the share index is highest in the youngest group for all Marlboro and Virginia Slims packings. At least a part of the success of Marlboro Red during its most rapid growth period was because it became the brand of choice among teenagers who then stuck with it as they grew older. " March 31, 1981 market research report on young smokers titled "Young Smokers Prevalence,
Trends, Implications, and Related Demographic Trends," written by Philip Morris researcher
Myron E. Johnston and approved by Carolyn Levy and Harry Daniel. Bates No. 1000390803

"We will no longer be able to rely on a rapidly increasing pool of teenagers from which to replace smokers through lost normal attrition. . . Because of our high share of the market among the youngest smokers Philip Morris will suffer more than the other companies from the decline in the number of teenage smokers."
March 31, 1981 market research report on young smokers titled "Young Smokers Prevalence, Trends, Implications, and Related Demographic Trends," written by Philip Morris researcher
Myron E. Johnston and approved by Carolyn Levy and Harry Daniel. Bates No. 1000390803

"I have just received data on the graduating class of 1982 and the results are much more encouraging and corroborate the Roper data [a survey that tracked track smoking trends] . . . These data show that
smoking prevalence among these 18-year-old high school seniors has increased from 1981 to 1982."
February 19, 1983 Philip Morris interoffice memo, "Still More on Trends in Cigarette Smoking
Prevalence." Bates No. 2022849870

“The ability to attract new smokers and develop them into a young adult franchise is key to brand development.”
1999 Philip Morris report, "Five-Year Trends 1988-1992." Bates No. 2044895379-484

Something to think about... Never forget you are nothing but a target a replacement for the last customer they killed.

STAY QUIT
Greg

[G]

Greg, was it your intro that had the letters written by kids to tobacco companies for free samples and how they responded? I'd like to bump that post, if so, for new folks.

[G]

Would I dip again ?

I have seen this question posted in different areas off and on and it gets me to thinking. Would I ever dip again knowing what I know now?

I have played different scenarios in my head during my quit, and thought would any of these would be permissible to allow me to dip again? It is funny to me that I actually spent all this time thinking about this stuff, maybe I need another hobby. Below are some of the things that have passed through my mind on the subject.

1.The terminal illness – This is the one that has to be the easiest to answer right? If I get a terminal illness and was going to die anyway well why not add dipping back to the equation, I mean I am dying anyway so why not?

2.Some terrible tragedy – pick one. Life gives you many to choose from. For me the one that kept playing in my head was something to do with losing my family thus rendering my desire to remain quit or alive a null point. So pack one?

3.The end of the world - If I knew the end of the world was at hand would I run to the store and get a can. This one for me was some nuclear attack from N. Korea or something like that. I knew I had time before the end so why not run to the store and grab a can. Who would it hurt? It would all be over in an hour anyway.

There are others but I think you get the point, so letÂ’s get to the answer. Would I dip again knowing what I know now for any of the reasons listed above, or for any other reason?

Well my answer to that question today is different than it was at the beginning of my quit, three months ago, even a month ago. I used to think if any of the above happened I would most certainly run to the store and buy a can. What possible difference could it make? I have fought long and hard and if the end was coming why not face it with a fatty? Today I will tell you there is no fucking way I would ever put a dip back in my face. Even if I knew I would die in an hour and could have one I would not do it.

I have learned far too much about tobacco/nicotine and the fuckers that produce/ sell it. How they researched their product and chemically enhanced it to make me/you more dependent on it. How they target our children and hope to hook them too. I have developed a seething hatred for everything their miserable fucking company/product represents.

They have poisoned my family members, me, you, and are looking for more lifelong addicts so they can add to their bottom line. They do not give a shit what their product does to your body or your family. They sell poison on a daily basis to millions and are thinking of creative ways to expand their client base.

Would I ever dip againÂ… FUCK NO !! I will set my money on fire before I give one more cent to those death dealers.

Newbies: Get over the illusion that you miss this shit, you do not. You did not like it, it was not fun, it did not help anything. You were addicted to a chemically enhanced super drug. Quit romanticizing it and look at it with open eyes. Develop a hate for it, the people that make and sell it, and it will make it much easier for you to remain quit.

Always liked this one, Greg.

[Greg5280]

Good Morning Quitters. Great day to be Free!

Who wants some?

STAY QUIT
Greg5280

[wastepanel]

:WastedPanel:

[Greg5280]

1,701 days clean today and I owe it to this site and the quitters who walk these halls. Today I did not use and I thank you all for that.

The site has been active over the past couple of days to say the least, this too shall pass. Do not let the events of the past couple of days take your eye off the prize!

Remember why you are here. The enemy is Nicotine, the victory is not using.

STAY QUIT
Greg

[jhaenel23]

Oct 30,2009 - The day I decided to take my life back.  4 years and counting. Freedom is Amazing!!

'oh yeah'

'wave' 'clap' 'wave'

'worship' Goo Stuff !!!! 'worship'

Greg,

You were one of the first to post on my intro 370 some days ago! I thank you and salute you on 4 years of Freedom!! Thanks for the support!


J

[cbird65]

Oct 30,2009 - The day I decided to take my life back.  4 years and counting. Freedom is Amazing!!

'oh yeah'

'wave' 'clap' 'wave'

'worship' Goo Stuff !!!! 'worship'

[RAZD611]

Oct 30,2009 - The day I decided to take my life back. 4 years and counting. Freedom is Amazing!!

'oh yeah'

'wave' 'clap' 'wave'

[Greg5280]

Oct 30,2009 - The day I decided to take my life back. 4 years and counting. Freedom is Amazing!!

'oh yeah'

[Greg5280]

More good Stuff... I struggled with "what to do" also. This sums it up nicely!!

One of the events that takes place with many people involved in any recovery, including nicotine is that they get to a neutral point. They beat it. Now what? There are many paths to choose from at this point. Some are happy to just say "I Won" and go along with their lives. Some of us stay involved with the community we recovered in and begin to help new people.  But for many there is a void created.  Going from being in conflict with ourselves in an addiction to being safe from it is great. But just sitting there being safe isn't all it is cracked up to be.

Imagine being given a lot full of trash. It's all yours to do anything you want with. You work dilligently cleaning it up until you find the earth under the mess. Now you no longer have an lot full of trash, you have a barren lot. Neutral. You add some grass, a garden, benches, what ever comes to mind. Improvement. Or, you let trash collect again... Relapse.

We have many other programs or "rooms" as I call them to help not only heal, but improve life while getting away from the nicotine, as well as afterwards.

Getting someone who has been in conflict with themselves for a long time to settle down and make peace with themselves is not an easy task. Regardless of what anyone thinks, you put yourself in conflict with yourself when you put poison into your body.

MJ

[Greg5280]

Great Stuff MJ. Putting this here for later reference...

This program works, and it works well. It's longevity is even provided for by "after care" forums that, either by design or by accident have become a reality. The program itself is based on peer support and personal discipline. The forums (quit groups, wildcard, etc) create the community and the means of a support structure. You can find a multitude of diversions to help you become involved in the community and cement your resolve.

Then what? I hear many vets talk about things like anxiety and depression. Believe it or not, in my experiences I have found this to be common. Why?

Let me start of by saying that Nicotine does make things easier for you. It increases your ability to think, it helps calm, it brings a mild sense of euphoria. Yes, an addiction. We would not have continued for as long as we had if it had not given us something. When we take it away suddenly, we experience "The Fog" we all know so well. And everything goes haywire for a bit. But we are good with that, because we have our quit group, chat, wildcard forums to help us cope with the misery.

After a period of time, our bodies heal, our minds heal, but once an addict always an addict. You cannot undo it. The problem that many of us experience now is the problem of emptieness. You won the fight, and the glory begins to fade, now what?

Having spent a majority of our lives using a substance that helped us stay calm, think, shit, etc we never learned how to do many of those things as an adult. Anxiety and depression creep in. But this site has an answer for that also, and many of un-aware of it.

We have forums that take some external and personal work. These are great places to begin to deal with the new problems, many of which don't exist other than in our own minds.

Forums like "Exercise Group", "Endurance Enthusiastist Club", "Meditation" will provide you with resources to battle your new "problems". These are only a few, and if you have an interest that you feel would be an asset to others then by all means approach a mod and see if we can get something started.

MJ

[kana]

Day 1,345

I went home this past weekend and met up with an old friend of mine, actually my best friend growing up.  This was the guy I started dipping with when we were 14 or 15.  We would walk from his house to buy a can every day.  $.89 a can back then.  We did everything together all the way through College and early into our careers.  Our kids played together, he might as well have been my brother. 

We were extremely close until I started my quit, and for the sake of my quit I chose to stay away from him. Not an easy decision at the time, but a necessary one. I visited him a time or two early on in my quit and he was supportive and wished me luck, but I could not stand to be around him while he dipped. I could not believe that he would continue to stuff his face full of poison in front of me and also continue to do something that was so clearly wrong for him.  I just decided I would avoid him and we drifted apart and I had not spoken a word to him in three years.

We sat and talked for about 3 hours on Saturday, sadly he packed his lip about 3 different times.  I asked him when he was going to quit that shit and his answer was " I can't."  " I can't go without it for more than 20 minutes, I start to get shaky and irritable."  I told him he was an addict and he shook his head in agreement, but said he didn't know how to start.  I told him where we were and that he was welcome, I told him I would walk him through the fire.  I hope to see him here before it is too late. 

I am going to take a new approach with him.  Instead of avoiding him as I did early on I am going to see him as often as I can, tell him how great life is free of the bitch, encourage him, give him knowledge.  I made the choice early on to avoid him to protect my quit, which I still believe was the right choice.  I am now going to reverse that decision to get him to begin his !!  We met Saturday by chance and I think it is time for me to reach out and help....

STAY QUIT
Greg

Get 'em brother. Let us know when he starts walking the halls.

In the meantime, you can tell him a total stranger that lives in the middle of nowhere in Maine is ready to support and help, too.

I bet there's about 1,000 other strangers chomping at the bit, too.

Yes. Man, I hope there is going to be a great ending to this story. I am here to help write it if he wants to begin journey of freedom.

Sign this Quitter up!! Whatever we can do. Nothing better than helping a loved one out of the fogg......

J

Push him into the live chat, hell he is bound to run into me and I would be more than welcome to lend a hand/ear/advice....

well done Greg as I know it must not be the most idea situation for you.

Bro... I just met you in chat today, a pleasure :)
81 days in for me right now... Not a noob, not a vet. I've got advice to offer the new guys, sure, but still have lots to learn and soak up. Hell... I think any quitter worth his/her salt would say that. This is a lifetime endeavor.

Thanks for reinforcing the foundation of my quit. Involvement, accountability, compassion, time tested quit wisdom.... Brotherhood. Proud to quit with you today...

AJ,
It was good meeting you last night also. Always good to get into chat and talk to some other quitters. I have been really slammed at work and let that interfere with my time on the site. I am making adjustments for that now and will be more active here.

Time spent on here is more productive and rewarding anyway...

STAY QUIT
Greg

I'm glad you will be making more time for the sight Greg. You are one of the ones that makes a big difference. Wisdom like you have shouldn't be bottled up. To many on this sight, including me could sure use any of that wisdom you don't mind giving up. Quit with you anyday.

Srans,
Thanks for that! Good to know my ramblings have helped. I am always willing to share what I know so fire away and I will help how I can.

STAY QUIT
Greg

Absolutely, go get him. He can be quit, we all know that. I hope you can help him see he can quit too. You've been a great influence on many quitters, hopefully he can be one more!

Awesome shit right there. I agree with you 100%. Your quit was too important in the beginning.. Did the right thing by staying away. Now is the time to flood him with your positive aura.. The more he sees, the more he'll want it. peace

[T-Cell]

Day 1,345

I went home this past weekend and met up with an old friend of mine, actually my best friend growing up.  This was the guy I started dipping with when we were 14 or 15.  We would walk from his house to buy a can every day.  $.89 a can back then.  We did everything together all the way through College and early into our careers.  Our kids played together, he might as well have been my brother. 

We were extremely close until I started my quit, and for the sake of my quit I chose to stay away from him. Not an easy decision at the time, but a necessary one. I visited him a time or two early on in my quit and he was supportive and wished me luck, but I could not stand to be around him while he dipped. I could not believe that he would continue to stuff his face full of poison in front of me and also continue to do something that was so clearly wrong for him.  I just decided I would avoid him and we drifted apart and I had not spoken a word to him in three years.

We sat and talked for about 3 hours on Saturday, sadly he packed his lip about 3 different times.  I asked him when he was going to quit that shit and his answer was " I can't."  " I can't go without it for more than 20 minutes, I start to get shaky and irritable."  I told him he was an addict and he shook his head in agreement, but said he didn't know how to start.  I told him where we were and that he was welcome, I told him I would walk him through the fire.  I hope to see him here before it is too late. 

I am going to take a new approach with him.  Instead of avoiding him as I did early on I am going to see him as often as I can, tell him how great life is free of the bitch, encourage him, give him knowledge.  I made the choice early on to avoid him to protect my quit, which I still believe was the right choice.  I am now going to reverse that decision to get him to begin his !!  We met Saturday by chance and I think it is time for me to reach out and help....

STAY QUIT
Greg

Get 'em brother. Let us know when he starts walking the halls.

In the meantime, you can tell him a total stranger that lives in the middle of nowhere in Maine is ready to support and help, too.

I bet there's about 1,000 other strangers chomping at the bit, too.

Yes. Man, I hope there is going to be a great ending to this story. I am here to help write it if he wants to begin journey of freedom.

Sign this Quitter up!! Whatever we can do. Nothing better than helping a loved one out of the fogg......

J

Push him into the live chat, hell he is bound to run into me and I would be more than welcome to lend a hand/ear/advice....

well done Greg as I know it must not be the most idea situation for you.

Bro... I just met you in chat today, a pleasure :)
81 days in for me right now... Not a noob, not a vet. I've got advice to offer the new guys, sure, but still have lots to learn and soak up. Hell... I think any quitter worth his/her salt would say that. This is a lifetime endeavor.

Thanks for reinforcing the foundation of my quit. Involvement, accountability, compassion, time tested quit wisdom.... Brotherhood. Proud to quit with you today...

AJ,
It was good meeting you last night also. Always good to get into chat and talk to some other quitters. I have been really slammed at work and let that interfere with my time on the site. I am making adjustments for that now and will be more active here.

Time spent on here is more productive and rewarding anyway...

STAY QUIT
Greg

I'm glad you will be making more time for the sight Greg. You are one of the ones that makes a big difference. Wisdom like you have shouldn't be bottled up. To many on this sight, including me could sure use any of that wisdom you don't mind giving up. Quit with you anyday.

Srans,
Thanks for that! Good to know my ramblings have helped. I am always willing to share what I know so fire away and I will help how I can.

STAY QUIT
Greg

Absolutely, go get him. He can be quit, we all know that. I hope you can help him see he can quit too. You've been a great influence on many quitters, hopefully he can be one more!