KillTheCan.org Accountability Forum
Community => Introductions => Topic started by: FkSkoal on August 05, 2014, 02:28:00 PM
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I was on the chats for a bit today using the handle NoMas. I figured FKSKOAL is more appropriate.
28 male from NYC, wife, 3 month old son.
Dipped Skoal mint pouches for 3-4 years and QUIT cold turkey on 31 July 2014. :D
Was dipping in a hotel room for a work conference on the evening of 30 July 2014 and just had an intense moment of disgust with the habit.
That was my last dip. I am tired of hiding it from my wife, friends, and coworkers. Better to have nothing to hide at all. And better to stay in good health.
I was looking around online about symptoms of withdrawal. I had no idea this would even be an issue for me. I received an amazing feeling of relief when I found out how common these things are and that I am not alone.
For me, the headaches are the worst part. Light-headedness, the fog. Pressure on the temples and base of ears. Tension in the neck and shoulders. Irritability. Feeling warm. Then cold.
Excedrin has helped a great deal. But I am told that the physical withdrawals are temporary and will subside; the real test will be the mental, psychological withdrawal. And that is why I am here. For your support, and to support others.
I am reading about the posting roll process and look forward to being a part of this community.
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I was on the chats for a bit today using the handle NoMas. I figured FKSKOAL is more appropriate.
28 male from NYC, wife, 3 month old son.
Dipped Skoal mint pouches for 3-4 years and QUIT cold turkey on 31 July 2014. :D
Was dipping in a hotel room for a work conference on the evening of 30 July 2014 and just had an intense moment of disgust with the habit.
That was my last dip. I am tired of hiding it from my wife, friends, and coworkers. Better to have nothing to hide at all. And better to stay in good health.
I was looking around online about symptoms of withdrawal. I had no idea this would even be an issue for me. I received an amazing feeling of relief when I found out how common these things are and that I am not alone.
For me, the headaches are the worst part. Light-headedness, the fog. Pressure on the temples and base of ears. Tension in the neck and shoulders. Irritability. Feeling warm. Then cold.
Excedrin has helped a great deal. But I am told that the physical withdrawals are temporary and will subside; the real test will be the mental, psychological withdrawal. And that is why I am here. For your support, and to support others.
I am reading about the posting roll process and look forward to being a part of this community.
Welcome. Stick with FkSkoal in chat now too, so we'll all know who you are. This place works. We talked about it all in chat. Feel free to PM if you've got any questions.
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I was on the chats for a bit today using the handle NoMas. I figured FKSKOAL is more appropriate.
28 male from NYC, wife, 3 month old son.
Dipped Skoal mint pouches for 3-4 years and QUIT cold turkey on 31 July 2014. :D
Was dipping in a hotel room for a work conference on the evening of 30 July 2014 and just had an intense moment of disgust with the habit.
That was my last dip. I am tired of hiding it from my wife, friends, and coworkers. Better to have nothing to hide at all. And better to stay in good health.
I was looking around online about symptoms of withdrawal. I had no idea this would even be an issue for me. I received an amazing feeling of relief when I found out how common these things are and that I am not alone.
For me, the headaches are the worst part. Light-headedness, the fog. Pressure on the temples and base of ears. Tension in the neck and shoulders. Irritability. Feeling warm. Then cold.
Excedrin has helped a great deal. But I am told that the physical withdrawals are temporary and will subside; the real test will be the mental, psychological withdrawal. And that is why I am here. For your support, and to support others.
I am reading about the posting roll process and look forward to being a part of this community.
Welcome. Stick with FkSkoal in chat now too, so we'll all know who you are. This place works. We talked about it all in chat. Feel free to PM if you've got any questions.
Welcome to the site...Read, read, read, and post roll in your group...Need help, just ask.
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Welcome, FkSkoal! Get your name added to the November 2014 roll post haste. Make it policy to post roll first thing every day. Read through the forum threads/articles, absorb the info, and embrace the program for what it is: a no bullshit cold turkey quit. Pretty badass.
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Welcome, FkSkoal! Get your name added to the November 2014 roll post haste. Make it policy to post roll first thing every day. Read through the forum threads/articles, absorb the info, and embrace the program for what it is: a no bullshit cold turkey quit. Pretty badass.
Seems like you got your quit on strong. Get posted in November and make some friends, the worst is over for you but beware of the road ahead. Get your quit tools in line, and have a plan for the rough days.
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Welcome to the family man.
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Thank you, all. I think I need a doctorate to post roll lol.
Headaches eased up today. But I started grinding my teeth at night. Ugh.
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Headaches and fog are normal, get a post on November board and someone will post you up (like me).
EDIT - nice roll call, but you gotta be doing this for you brother!
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Headaches and fog are normal, get a post on November board and someone will post you up (like me).
EDIT - nice roll call, but you gotta be doing this for you brother!
What Thumblewort said...
You are worth it, you know that?
It's gonna suck, until it doesn't.
Read all on this site. Twice.
One day at a time and your addict dipping brain will yield to what YOU want to do!! You can own this and win...ODAAT.
Glad you made it here. You're not alone.
Drink lots of water, avoid the booze for a long time, exercise, yell, run around the yard, eat candy, peanuts, whatever it takes to "NOT" put the poison in your mouth for Today! Tomorrow, you do it again. Welcome to the family.
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What they ^^^ said! Read, read, read. All the knowledge is here for your taking. You have all the power bad ass! The KTC plan works, learn it, and live it! PM me if you need anything.
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Welcome to the best decision you've made.
Getting nicotine out of your life is a tough battle but it's so worth it.
Take your quit one day at a time and post roll to promise you won't use nicotine for that day.
This forum is only as helpful as you allow it to be. Get involved and get connected with quitters in your group, as well as some more experienced guys.
Glad to have you here and proud to be quit with you.
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Thanks all you BMFs for the support! Thank god for this site.
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You are winning! QLF with you all day. Work your quit today.
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FkSkoal,
All of those badass quitters who have responded to you before me have given you great advice. I want to emphasize what they said with some direct links to save you a few minutes of fumbling around the site. All of the below links are links to KTC areas and are safe for your computer (perhaps sans this whole Russian data theft bullshit):
1. Your spouse/girlfriend, her support is critical and she deserves to understand more what you are going through, so see the following link and hell print it or e-mail it to her to read Spousal Support (http://www.killthecan.org/community/spousal-support/)
2. Read this for yourself to make sure you fully know what to expect What to expect when you quit (http://www.killthecan.org/your-quit/what-to-expect-when-you-quit-dipping/); some days are better then others, then eventually all days are better
3. Read the stories on here at KTC, the Kern story is a tear jerker and though you want to be around for your kids this will reinforce it dramatically, Kern's Story (http://forum.killthecan.org/topic/1008859/1/); then there are these words spoken by a man who lost his brother to this stupid shit Sean Marsee (http://forum.killthecan.org/topic/1009362/1/#new), damn I wish he would have talked at my middle school.
4. Find an alternative and keep it on you at all times. There will be times when going to the Convenience Store and getting a soda or anything else can cause one lapse in judgment and lead to a huge mistake. Don't be that guy, be the guy with Testicular Fortitude.
5. Find a couple of other quitters and exchange numbers with them, if you need another please PM me and let's do this.
6. Remember that you are an addict, 100 days is a milestone not a goal; the goal is a lifetime being free from the nic bitch. Get pissed off at big tobacco and the dangers they put you in.
7. Remember that you are the one who caused you to be an addict, so don't let anger get outside of your control. It is no one else's fault that you got here. Your family will only support you if you are not an asshole.
P
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Two days into my quit last week, I started grinding my teeth at night. I assume from the stress of not having the bitch in my system. I bought a mouthpiece to wear at night. It ended up cutting my gum behind a wisdom tooth. Paid a visit to the dentist this morning and, unfortunately, this did cause infection so I was prescribed antibiotics. However, everything else is a clean bill of health - particularly in the very front portion of my lip, which is where I always packed. I never had any sores or spotting, thank God, but to hear that you're okay from a dentist is a huge relief. I told him about my quit (3 year dip and occasional cigars), and this forum, and he said it was the best decision I would ever make. No kidding, doc!
The point of sharing this is that you should reward yourself on your quit with a trip to the dentist who can hopefully put your mind at ease and be a source of encouragement to you in your quit!
Today is day 8 for me and I feel fucking fantastic, by the way. I am headache free, no fog to speak of. I still have tension in my neck and upper shoulders, but oh well. I am not as irritable as I was during the first 5 days.
This forum is fucking awesome. I am actively trying to recruit a cousin and good friend, both dippers, to go cold turkey like I did and JOIN THIS SITE.
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Happy to be on my 10th day dip free nic free.
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30 days without nic. Feels so good. I have energy. I'm focused, tranquil. Like a Buddhist monk.
Physical withdrawals lasted through approximately day 10, with the most intense headaches peaking at day 4-5. Paranoia, anxiety, and weird thoughts lasted about two weeks.
I coasted through to day 20, riding the high of rage against big tobacco. After that point, I noticed the psychological withdrawal. I toyed with the thought of only packing one lip. Trying to convince myself some kind of middle-ground could be attained.
Those thoughts dominated the first 15 minutes of my morning one day while getting ready for work. I logged onto KTC, posted roll, and the simple act of doing that set me straight. I haven't had any fleeting ideas of dipping since. But I know I might in the future, which is why it is so important to post roll and remain engaged here. It has become part of my routine now. And I wouldn't change a damn thing about it.
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Day 72 and I feel like a normal human being. Made a stop at 711 this morning for coffee, didn't even occur to me to see what was in stock behind the counter. It is a non-element in my life at this point. This is perhaps due to a convergence of different factors, maybe that I wasn't as heavy a user as some of the vets on this site. But 3-4 years on-and-off ninja style was enough to make me realize it's gotta stop at some point.
Smokey Mountain mint leaf pouches are a great substitute to satisfy the oral fixation, which I really only entertain out of boredom during softball season (right field).
There is a bittersweet feeling to know that I am on the right path, meanwhile almost everyone else on the team - mostly guys in the mid to late 20s with wives and small children - are setting themselves up for a possibly devastating diagnosis at some point.
As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).
Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.
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Day 72 and I feel like a normal human being. Made a stop at 711 this morning for coffee, didn't even occur to me to see what was in stock behind the counter. It is a non-element in my life at this point. This is perhaps due to a convergence of different factors, maybe that I wasn't as heavy a user as some of the vets on this site. But 3-4 years on-and-off ninja style was enough to make me realize it's gotta stop at some point.
Smokey Mountain mint leaf pouches are a great substitute to satisfy the oral fixation, which I really only entertain out of boredom during softball season (right field).
There is a bittersweet feeling to know that I am on the right path, meanwhile almost everyone else on the team - mostly guys in the mid to late 20s with wives and small children - are setting themselves up for a possibly devastating diagnosis at some point.
As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).
Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.
Great entry FK. Quit with you EDD. Keep up the hard work, your quit is rocking!
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As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).
Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.
I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.
My issues with your statement above:
#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.
#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.
#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.
I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.
P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.
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As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).
Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.
I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.
My issues with your statement above:
#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.
#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.
#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.
I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.
P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.
1. Automatically linking libertarianism with being "seriously pro big tobacco" reveals your inherent misunderstanding of the philosophy of libertarianism.
We are all responsible for our own actions, so yes, tobacco IS a personal choice. That is not a ridiculous belief, as you claim. No one put a gun to my head when I took my first dip. As an individual with free will, I make conscious lifestyle choices, fully aware of all consequences. Which is why I am now quit.
Large sugary drinks were nearly banned here in NYC, because the state believes it gets to decide what is healthy and unhealthy. Where do we draw the line? These are the big-picture questions with which libertarians have real issues. Take big tobacco to task for marketing to children, ban "fun" flavors of dip (which is NYC law), and even require vendors to remove all tobacco products from being publicly visible. Fine. But to completely ban a substance because the state is looking out for your personal health? On that I call bull shit. Paternalist bull shit, to be more precise. Let me make my own INDIVIDUAL decisions, both bad and good.
2. There are definitely online cult-like qualities exhibited on KTC in my opinion. I know I am not the first person to voice this on here. And yes, I have studied cult movements in relation to sociology and political science (I am university professor). One of the hallmark qualities of a cult is the admonishing of anyone with ideas that don't fit within the running ideology. I have seen KTC members do this to noobies with trophy cans (empties). It's as though no one can acknowledge that a trophy can might help better motivate an individual in their quit. So instead of having a real dialogue, you run them off the site. Doesn't really jive with the whole "brotherhood" line being peddled.
3. I have numbers with other quitters, they know who they are. Have not met other quitters in person due to work and the fact that there are very few active NYC-based quitters. Also, used chat early on but haven't since due to work.
IMO, my viewpoint of KTC having cult-like aspects does not help nor hinder my quit. It is simply an observation. Now, I do think the site could improve as a whole if members stopped running newbies off for having trophy cans. You want to call someone out for being dishonorable? No problem with that- when it comes to caving. But a trophy can being dishonorable? REALLY?
But for me personally, the culty aspects really makes no difference. Again, just a simple observation. KTC serves its purposes, which is keeping me accountable in my quit.
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As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).
Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.
I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.
My issues with your statement above:
#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.
#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.
#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.
I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.
P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.
1. Automatically linking libertarianism with being "seriously pro big tobacco" reveals your inherent misunderstanding of the philosophy of libertarianism.
We are all responsible for our own actions, so yes, tobacco IS a personal choice. That is not a ridiculous belief, as you claim. No one put a gun to my head when I took my first dip. As an individual with free will, I make conscious lifestyle choices, fully aware of all consequences. Which is why I am now quit.
Large sugary drinks were nearly banned here in NYC, because the state believes it gets to decide what is healthy and unhealthy. Where do we draw the line? These are the big-picture questions with which libertarians have real issues. Take big tobacco to task for marketing to children, ban "fun" flavors of dip (which is NYC law), and even require vendors to remove all tobacco products from being publicly visible. Fine. But to completely ban a substance because the state is looking out for your personal health? On that I call bull shit. Paternalist bull shit, to be more precise. Let me make my own INDIVIDUAL decisions, both bad and good.
2. There are definitely online cult-like qualities exhibited on KTC in my opinion. I know I am not the first person to voice this on here. And yes, I have studied cult movements in relation to sociology and political science (I am university professor). One of the hallmark qualities of a cult is the admonishing of anyone with ideas that don't fit within the running ideology. I have seen KTC members do this to noobies with trophy cans (empties). It's as though no one can acknowledge that a trophy can might help better motivate an individual in their quit. So instead of having a real dialogue, you run them off the site. Doesn't really jive with the whole "brotherhood" line being peddled.
3. I have numbers with other quitters, they know who they are. Have not met other quitters in person due to work and the fact that there are very few active NYC-based quitters. Also, used chat early on but haven't since due to work.
IMO, my viewpoint of KTC having cult-like aspects does not help nor hinder my quit. It is simply an observation. Now, I do think the site could improve as a whole if members stopped running newbies off for having trophy cans. You want to call someone out for being dishonorable? No problem with that- when it comes to caving. But a trophy can being dishonorable? REALLY?
But for me personally, the culty aspects really makes no difference. Again, just a simple observation. KTC serves its purposes, which is keeping me accountable in my quit.
Whatever. Just chug the koolaid and make this quit last forever. Quit being so righteous.
Big Tobacco is pure evil.
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As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).
Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.
I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.
My issues with your statement above:
#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.
#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.
#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.
I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.
P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.
1. Automatically linking libertarianism with being "seriously pro big tobacco" reveals your inherent misunderstanding of the philosophy of libertarianism.
We are all responsible for our own actions, so yes, tobacco IS a personal choice. That is not a ridiculous belief, as you claim. No one put a gun to my head when I took my first dip. As an individual with free will, I make conscious lifestyle choices, fully aware of all consequences. Which is why I am now quit.
Large sugary drinks were nearly banned here in NYC, because the state believes it gets to decide what is healthy and unhealthy. Where do we draw the line? These are the big-picture questions with which libertarians have real issues. Take big tobacco to task for marketing to children, ban "fun" flavors of dip (which is NYC law), and even require vendors to remove all tobacco products from being publicly visible. Fine. But to completely ban a substance because the state is looking out for your personal health? On that I call bull shit. Paternalist bull shit, to be more precise. Let me make my own INDIVIDUAL decisions, both bad and good.
2. There are definitely online cult-like qualities exhibited on KTC in my opinion. I know I am not the first person to voice this on here. And yes, I have studied cult movements in relation to sociology and political science (I am university professor). One of the hallmark qualities of a cult is the admonishing of anyone with ideas that don't fit within the running ideology. I have seen KTC members do this to noobies with trophy cans (empties). It's as though no one can acknowledge that a trophy can might help better motivate an individual in their quit. So instead of having a real dialogue, you run them off the site. Doesn't really jive with the whole "brotherhood" line being peddled.
3. I have numbers with other quitters, they know who they are. Have not met other quitters in person due to work and the fact that there are very few active NYC-based quitters. Also, used chat early on but haven't since due to work.
IMO, my viewpoint of KTC having cult-like aspects does not help nor hinder my quit. It is simply an observation. Now, I do think the site could improve as a whole if members stopped running newbies off for having trophy cans. You want to call someone out for being dishonorable? No problem with that- when it comes to caving. But a trophy can being dishonorable? REALLY?
But for me personally, the culty aspects really makes no difference. Again, just a simple observation. KTC serves its purposes, which is keeping me accountable in my quit.
Whatever. Just chug the koolaid and make this quit last forever. Quit being so righteous.
Big Tobacco is pure evil.
Funny you should mention "chugging the kool-aid" in a discussion on the cult side of KTC. LOL.
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As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).
Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.
I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.
My issues with your statement above:
#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.
#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.
#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.
I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.
P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.
1. Automatically linking libertarianism with being "seriously pro big tobacco" reveals your inherent misunderstanding of the philosophy of libertarianism.
We are all responsible for our own actions, so yes, tobacco IS a personal choice. That is not a ridiculous belief, as you claim. No one put a gun to my head when I took my first dip. As an individual with free will, I make conscious lifestyle choices, fully aware of all consequences. Which is why I am now quit.
Large sugary drinks were nearly banned here in NYC, because the state believes it gets to decide what is healthy and unhealthy. Where do we draw the line? These are the big-picture questions with which libertarians have real issues. Take big tobacco to task for marketing to children, ban "fun" flavors of dip (which is NYC law), and even require vendors to remove all tobacco products from being publicly visible. Fine. But to completely ban a substance because the state is looking out for your personal health? On that I call bull shit. Paternalist bull shit, to be more precise. Let me make my own INDIVIDUAL decisions, both bad and good.
2. There are definitely online cult-like qualities exhibited on KTC in my opinion. I know I am not the first person to voice this on here. And yes, I have studied cult movements in relation to sociology and political science (I am university professor). One of the hallmark qualities of a cult is the admonishing of anyone with ideas that don't fit within the running ideology. I have seen KTC members do this to noobies with trophy cans (empties). It's as though no one can acknowledge that a trophy can might help better motivate an individual in their quit. So instead of having a real dialogue, you run them off the site. Doesn't really jive with the whole "brotherhood" line being peddled.
3. I have numbers with other quitters, they know who they are. Have not met other quitters in person due to work and the fact that there are very few active NYC-based quitters. Also, used chat early on but haven't since due to work.
IMO, my viewpoint of KTC having cult-like aspects does not help nor hinder my quit. It is simply an observation. Now, I do think the site could improve as a whole if members stopped running newbies off for having trophy cans. You want to call someone out for being dishonorable? No problem with that- when it comes to caving. But a trophy can being dishonorable? REALLY?
But for me personally, the culty aspects really makes no difference. Again, just a simple observation. KTC serves its purposes, which is keeping me accountable in my quit.
Whatever. Just chug the koolaid and make this quit last forever. Quit being so righteous.
Big Tobacco is pure evil.
Funny you should mention "chugging the kool-aid" in a discussion on the cult side of KTC. LOL.
I meant it to be funny (or ironic). I went to college. Tobacco companies are targeting children. It's not a choice. It's a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government. It is pure evil and definitely not a choice.
-
As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).
Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.
I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.
My issues with your statement above:
#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.
#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.
#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.
I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.
P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.
1. Automatically linking libertarianism with being "seriously pro big tobacco" reveals your inherent misunderstanding of the philosophy of libertarianism.
We are all responsible for our own actions, so yes, tobacco IS a personal choice. That is not a ridiculous belief, as you claim. No one put a gun to my head when I took my first dip. As an individual with free will, I make conscious lifestyle choices, fully aware of all consequences. Which is why I am now quit.
Large sugary drinks were nearly banned here in NYC, because the state believes it gets to decide what is healthy and unhealthy. Where do we draw the line? These are the big-picture questions with which libertarians have real issues. Take big tobacco to task for marketing to children, ban "fun" flavors of dip (which is NYC law), and even require vendors to remove all tobacco products from being publicly visible. Fine. But to completely ban a substance because the state is looking out for your personal health? On that I call bull shit. Paternalist bull shit, to be more precise. Let me make my own INDIVIDUAL decisions, both bad and good.
2. There are definitely online cult-like qualities exhibited on KTC in my opinion. I know I am not the first person to voice this on here. And yes, I have studied cult movements in relation to sociology and political science (I am university professor). One of the hallmark qualities of a cult is the admonishing of anyone with ideas that don't fit within the running ideology. I have seen KTC members do this to noobies with trophy cans (empties). It's as though no one can acknowledge that a trophy can might help better motivate an individual in their quit. So instead of having a real dialogue, you run them off the site. Doesn't really jive with the whole "brotherhood" line being peddled.
3. I have numbers with other quitters, they know who they are. Have not met other quitters in person due to work and the fact that there are very few active NYC-based quitters. Also, used chat early on but haven't since due to work.
IMO, my viewpoint of KTC having cult-like aspects does not help nor hinder my quit. It is simply an observation. Now, I do think the site could improve as a whole if members stopped running newbies off for having trophy cans. You want to call someone out for being dishonorable? No problem with that- when it comes to caving. But a trophy can being dishonorable? REALLY?
But for me personally, the culty aspects really makes no difference. Again, just a simple observation. KTC serves its purposes, which is keeping me accountable in my quit.
Whatever. Just chug the koolaid and make this quit last forever. Quit being so righteous.
Big Tobacco is pure evil.
Funny you should mention "chugging the kool-aid" in a discussion on the cult side of KTC. LOL.
I meant it to be funny (or ironic). I went to college. Tobacco companies are targeting children. It's not a choice. It's a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government. It is pure evil and definitely not a choice.
"It is a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government."
So is alcohol. But there are those who can enjoy a beer every now and then, and there are those who are abusive alcoholics.
To suggest that we have no choice is truly playing the victim card. I made my choice to dip- and then I made my choice to quit.
To suggest that we have no choice also diminishes the efforts of all those people who have refused to use tobacco in any form, ever. They had a choice, and they made the right choice from the beginning.
-
As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).
Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.
I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.
My issues with your statement above:
#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.
#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.
#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.
I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.
P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.
1. Automatically linking libertarianism with being "seriously pro big tobacco" reveals your inherent misunderstanding of the philosophy of libertarianism.
We are all responsible for our own actions, so yes, tobacco IS a personal choice. That is not a ridiculous belief, as you claim. No one put a gun to my head when I took my first dip. As an individual with free will, I make conscious lifestyle choices, fully aware of all consequences. Which is why I am now quit.
Large sugary drinks were nearly banned here in NYC, because the state believes it gets to decide what is healthy and unhealthy. Where do we draw the line? These are the big-picture questions with which libertarians have real issues. Take big tobacco to task for marketing to children, ban "fun" flavors of dip (which is NYC law), and even require vendors to remove all tobacco products from being publicly visible. Fine. But to completely ban a substance because the state is looking out for your personal health? On that I call bull shit. Paternalist bull shit, to be more precise. Let me make my own INDIVIDUAL decisions, both bad and good.
2. There are definitely online cult-like qualities exhibited on KTC in my opinion. I know I am not the first person to voice this on here. And yes, I have studied cult movements in relation to sociology and political science (I am university professor). One of the hallmark qualities of a cult is the admonishing of anyone with ideas that don't fit within the running ideology. I have seen KTC members do this to noobies with trophy cans (empties). It's as though no one can acknowledge that a trophy can might help better motivate an individual in their quit. So instead of having a real dialogue, you run them off the site. Doesn't really jive with the whole "brotherhood" line being peddled.
3. I have numbers with other quitters, they know who they are. Have not met other quitters in person due to work and the fact that there are very few active NYC-based quitters. Also, used chat early on but haven't since due to work.
IMO, my viewpoint of KTC having cult-like aspects does not help nor hinder my quit. It is simply an observation. Now, I do think the site could improve as a whole if members stopped running newbies off for having trophy cans. You want to call someone out for being dishonorable? No problem with that- when it comes to caving. But a trophy can being dishonorable? REALLY?
But for me personally, the culty aspects really makes no difference. Again, just a simple observation. KTC serves its purposes, which is keeping me accountable in my quit.
Whatever. Just chug the koolaid and make this quit last forever. Quit being so righteous.
Big Tobacco is pure evil.
Funny you should mention "chugging the kool-aid" in a discussion on the cult side of KTC. LOL.
I meant it to be funny (or ironic). I went to college. Tobacco companies are targeting children. It's not a choice. It's a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government. It is pure evil and definitely not a choice.
"It is a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government."
So is alcohol. But there are those who can enjoy a beer every now and then, and there are those who are abusive alcoholics.
To suggest that we have no choice is truly playing the victim card. I made my choice to dip- and then I made my choice to quit.
To suggest that we have no choice also diminishes the efforts of all those people who have refused to use tobacco in any form, ever. They had a choice, and they made the right choice from the beginning.
Tobacco is the leading cause of preventable death in the world. Evil people are expanding their fortunes from killing you and your children. It is as addictive as heroin, meth, and crack.
I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression. Until you see it as an act of aggression designed to steal time and money from people then we are going to disagree. If you see it for what it is it will fall right in line with your political philosophy.
-
As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).
Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.
I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.
My issues with your statement above:
#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.
#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.
#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.
I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.
P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.
1. Automatically linking libertarianism with being "seriously pro big tobacco" reveals your inherent misunderstanding of the philosophy of libertarianism.
We are all responsible for our own actions, so yes, tobacco IS a personal choice. That is not a ridiculous belief, as you claim. No one put a gun to my head when I took my first dip. As an individual with free will, I make conscious lifestyle choices, fully aware of all consequences. Which is why I am now quit.
Large sugary drinks were nearly banned here in NYC, because the state believes it gets to decide what is healthy and unhealthy. Where do we draw the line? These are the big-picture questions with which libertarians have real issues. Take big tobacco to task for marketing to children, ban "fun" flavors of dip (which is NYC law), and even require vendors to remove all tobacco products from being publicly visible. Fine. But to completely ban a substance because the state is looking out for your personal health? On that I call bull shit. Paternalist bull shit, to be more precise. Let me make my own INDIVIDUAL decisions, both bad and good.
2. There are definitely online cult-like qualities exhibited on KTC in my opinion. I know I am not the first person to voice this on here. And yes, I have studied cult movements in relation to sociology and political science (I am university professor). One of the hallmark qualities of a cult is the admonishing of anyone with ideas that don't fit within the running ideology. I have seen KTC members do this to noobies with trophy cans (empties). It's as though no one can acknowledge that a trophy can might help better motivate an individual in their quit. So instead of having a real dialogue, you run them off the site. Doesn't really jive with the whole "brotherhood" line being peddled.
3. I have numbers with other quitters, they know who they are. Have not met other quitters in person due to work and the fact that there are very few active NYC-based quitters. Also, used chat early on but haven't since due to work.
IMO, my viewpoint of KTC having cult-like aspects does not help nor hinder my quit. It is simply an observation. Now, I do think the site could improve as a whole if members stopped running newbies off for having trophy cans. You want to call someone out for being dishonorable? No problem with that- when it comes to caving. But a trophy can being dishonorable? REALLY?
But for me personally, the culty aspects really makes no difference. Again, just a simple observation. KTC serves its purposes, which is keeping me accountable in my quit.
Whatever. Just chug the koolaid and make this quit last forever. Quit being so righteous.
Big Tobacco is pure evil.
Funny you should mention "chugging the kool-aid" in a discussion on the cult side of KTC. LOL.
I meant it to be funny (or ironic). I went to college. Tobacco companies are targeting children. It's not a choice. It's a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government. It is pure evil and definitely not a choice.
"It is a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government."
So is alcohol. But there are those who can enjoy a beer every now and then, and there are those who are abusive alcoholics.
To suggest that we have no choice is truly playing the victim card. I made my choice to dip- and then I made my choice to quit.
To suggest that we have no choice also diminishes the efforts of all those people who have refused to use tobacco in any form, ever. They had a choice, and they made the right choice from the beginning.
Tobacco is the leading cause of preventable death in the world. Evil people are expanding their fortunes from killing you and your children. It is as addictive as heroin, meth, and crack.
I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression. Until you see it as an act of aggression designed to steal time and money from people then we are going to disagree. If you see it for what it is it will fall right in line with your political philosophy.
"I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression."
I truly do not. It is actually one of the more restrictive markets, these days at least.
In the debate over personal choice versus victims of aggressive marketing, what more evidence do you need when a product you're trying to sell is mandated to have a label on it which says quite clearly in black and white that THIS PRODUCT WILL KILL YOU.
Sounds like you've made your choice!
-
As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).
Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.
I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.
My issues with your statement above:
#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.
#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.
#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.
I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.
P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.
1. Automatically linking libertarianism with being "seriously pro big tobacco" reveals your inherent misunderstanding of the philosophy of libertarianism.
We are all responsible for our own actions, so yes, tobacco IS a personal choice. That is not a ridiculous belief, as you claim. No one put a gun to my head when I took my first dip. As an individual with free will, I make conscious lifestyle choices, fully aware of all consequences. Which is why I am now quit.
Large sugary drinks were nearly banned here in NYC, because the state believes it gets to decide what is healthy and unhealthy. Where do we draw the line? These are the big-picture questions with which libertarians have real issues. Take big tobacco to task for marketing to children, ban "fun" flavors of dip (which is NYC law), and even require vendors to remove all tobacco products from being publicly visible. Fine. But to completely ban a substance because the state is looking out for your personal health? On that I call bull shit. Paternalist bull shit, to be more precise. Let me make my own INDIVIDUAL decisions, both bad and good.
2. There are definitely online cult-like qualities exhibited on KTC in my opinion. I know I am not the first person to voice this on here. And yes, I have studied cult movements in relation to sociology and political science (I am university professor). One of the hallmark qualities of a cult is the admonishing of anyone with ideas that don't fit within the running ideology. I have seen KTC members do this to noobies with trophy cans (empties). It's as though no one can acknowledge that a trophy can might help better motivate an individual in their quit. So instead of having a real dialogue, you run them off the site. Doesn't really jive with the whole "brotherhood" line being peddled.
3. I have numbers with other quitters, they know who they are. Have not met other quitters in person due to work and the fact that there are very few active NYC-based quitters. Also, used chat early on but haven't since due to work.
IMO, my viewpoint of KTC having cult-like aspects does not help nor hinder my quit. It is simply an observation. Now, I do think the site could improve as a whole if members stopped running newbies off for having trophy cans. You want to call someone out for being dishonorable? No problem with that- when it comes to caving. But a trophy can being dishonorable? REALLY?
But for me personally, the culty aspects really makes no difference. Again, just a simple observation. KTC serves its purposes, which is keeping me accountable in my quit.
Whatever. Just chug the koolaid and make this quit last forever. Quit being so righteous.
Big Tobacco is pure evil.
Funny you should mention "chugging the kool-aid" in a discussion on the cult side of KTC. LOL.
I meant it to be funny (or ironic). I went to college. Tobacco companies are targeting children. It's not a choice. It's a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government. It is pure evil and definitely not a choice.
"It is a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government."
So is alcohol. But there are those who can enjoy a beer every now and then, and there are those who are abusive alcoholics.
To suggest that we have no choice is truly playing the victim card. I made my choice to dip- and then I made my choice to quit.
To suggest that we have no choice also diminishes the efforts of all those people who have refused to use tobacco in any form, ever. They had a choice, and they made the right choice from the beginning.
Tobacco is the leading cause of preventable death in the world. Evil people are expanding their fortunes from killing you and your children. It is as addictive as heroin, meth, and crack.
I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression. Until you see it as an act of aggression designed to steal time and money from people then we are going to disagree. If you see it for what it is it will fall right in line with your political philosophy.
"I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression."
I truly do not. It is actually one of the more restrictive markets, these days at least.
In the debate over personal choice versus victims of aggressive marketing, what more evidence do you need when a product you're trying to sell is mandated to have a label on it which says quite clearly in black and white that THIS PRODUCT WILL KILL YOU.
Sounds like you've made your choice!
Do you have kids? Do you remember the kids dipping/smoking in school?
-
As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).
Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.
I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.
My issues with your statement above:
#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.
#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.
#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.
I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.
P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.
1. Automatically linking libertarianism with being "seriously pro big tobacco" reveals your inherent misunderstanding of the philosophy of libertarianism.
We are all responsible for our own actions, so yes, tobacco IS a personal choice. That is not a ridiculous belief, as you claim. No one put a gun to my head when I took my first dip. As an individual with free will, I make conscious lifestyle choices, fully aware of all consequences. Which is why I am now quit.
Large sugary drinks were nearly banned here in NYC, because the state believes it gets to decide what is healthy and unhealthy. Where do we draw the line? These are the big-picture questions with which libertarians have real issues. Take big tobacco to task for marketing to children, ban "fun" flavors of dip (which is NYC law), and even require vendors to remove all tobacco products from being publicly visible. Fine. But to completely ban a substance because the state is looking out for your personal health? On that I call bull shit. Paternalist bull shit, to be more precise. Let me make my own INDIVIDUAL decisions, both bad and good.
2. There are definitely online cult-like qualities exhibited on KTC in my opinion. I know I am not the first person to voice this on here. And yes, I have studied cult movements in relation to sociology and political science (I am university professor). One of the hallmark qualities of a cult is the admonishing of anyone with ideas that don't fit within the running ideology. I have seen KTC members do this to noobies with trophy cans (empties). It's as though no one can acknowledge that a trophy can might help better motivate an individual in their quit. So instead of having a real dialogue, you run them off the site. Doesn't really jive with the whole "brotherhood" line being peddled.
3. I have numbers with other quitters, they know who they are. Have not met other quitters in person due to work and the fact that there are very few active NYC-based quitters. Also, used chat early on but haven't since due to work.
IMO, my viewpoint of KTC having cult-like aspects does not help nor hinder my quit. It is simply an observation. Now, I do think the site could improve as a whole if members stopped running newbies off for having trophy cans. You want to call someone out for being dishonorable? No problem with that- when it comes to caving. But a trophy can being dishonorable? REALLY?
But for me personally, the culty aspects really makes no difference. Again, just a simple observation. KTC serves its purposes, which is keeping me accountable in my quit.
Whatever. Just chug the koolaid and make this quit last forever. Quit being so righteous.
Big Tobacco is pure evil.
Funny you should mention "chugging the kool-aid" in a discussion on the cult side of KTC. LOL.
I meant it to be funny (or ironic). I went to college. Tobacco companies are targeting children. It's not a choice. It's a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government. It is pure evil and definitely not a choice.
"It is a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government."
So is alcohol. But there are those who can enjoy a beer every now and then, and there are those who are abusive alcoholics.
To suggest that we have no choice is truly playing the victim card. I made my choice to dip- and then I made my choice to quit.
To suggest that we have no choice also diminishes the efforts of all those people who have refused to use tobacco in any form, ever. They had a choice, and they made the right choice from the beginning.
Tobacco is the leading cause of preventable death in the world. Evil people are expanding their fortunes from killing you and your children. It is as addictive as heroin, meth, and crack.
I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression. Until you see it as an act of aggression designed to steal time and money from people then we are going to disagree. If you see it for what it is it will fall right in line with your political philosophy.
"I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression."
I truly do not. It is actually one of the more restrictive markets, these days at least.
In the debate over personal choice versus victims of aggressive marketing, what more evidence do you need when a product you're trying to sell is mandated to have a label on it which says quite clearly in black and white that THIS PRODUCT WILL KILL YOU.
Sounds like you've made your choice!
Do you have kids? Do you remember the kids dipping/smoking in school?
I'm 28 with a 6-month old boy.
Tobacco marketing and advertising has been the subject of very strict legislation in recent years. It's not the same playing field as it was decades ago. So let's not kid ourselves. Before I started my quit, I was well aware of the health issues, the carcinogens, and the BIG BLACK LABEL reminding me that I will die if I opened the tin.
Spare me the big bad wolf story of aggressive tobacco marketing. Let's talk today, let's talk 2014. I see more anti-tobacco advertising than anything else!
In addition to the marketing aspect, there is legislation on the table here in NYC where tobacco products cannot even be visible in the store. It must be stored under the counter. You also have to be 21 (not 18) in NYC to buy tobacco.
Legislators, public health agencies, and non-profits are doing more than ever to combat tobacco use in all forms. I see zero aggressive marketing- just plenty of people choosing to ignore the warnings because they wanna get a nice buzz. It's a design flaw in humanity- to only see the short-term gains and ignore the long-term consequences.
Let's not downplay the role of personal choice, personal responsibility, and individual liberties.
-
As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).
Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.
I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.
My issues with your statement above:
#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.
#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.
#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.
I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.
P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.
1. Automatically linking libertarianism with being "seriously pro big tobacco" reveals your inherent misunderstanding of the philosophy of libertarianism.
We are all responsible for our own actions, so yes, tobacco IS a personal choice. That is not a ridiculous belief, as you claim. No one put a gun to my head when I took my first dip. As an individual with free will, I make conscious lifestyle choices, fully aware of all consequences. Which is why I am now quit.
Large sugary drinks were nearly banned here in NYC, because the state believes it gets to decide what is healthy and unhealthy. Where do we draw the line? These are the big-picture questions with which libertarians have real issues. Take big tobacco to task for marketing to children, ban "fun" flavors of dip (which is NYC law), and even require vendors to remove all tobacco products from being publicly visible. Fine. But to completely ban a substance because the state is looking out for your personal health? On that I call bull shit. Paternalist bull shit, to be more precise. Let me make my own INDIVIDUAL decisions, both bad and good.
2. There are definitely online cult-like qualities exhibited on KTC in my opinion. I know I am not the first person to voice this on here. And yes, I have studied cult movements in relation to sociology and political science (I am university professor). One of the hallmark qualities of a cult is the admonishing of anyone with ideas that don't fit within the running ideology. I have seen KTC members do this to noobies with trophy cans (empties). It's as though no one can acknowledge that a trophy can might help better motivate an individual in their quit. So instead of having a real dialogue, you run them off the site. Doesn't really jive with the whole "brotherhood" line being peddled.
3. I have numbers with other quitters, they know who they are. Have not met other quitters in person due to work and the fact that there are very few active NYC-based quitters. Also, used chat early on but haven't since due to work.
IMO, my viewpoint of KTC having cult-like aspects does not help nor hinder my quit. It is simply an observation. Now, I do think the site could improve as a whole if members stopped running newbies off for having trophy cans. You want to call someone out for being dishonorable? No problem with that- when it comes to caving. But a trophy can being dishonorable? REALLY?
But for me personally, the culty aspects really makes no difference. Again, just a simple observation. KTC serves its purposes, which is keeping me accountable in my quit.
Whatever. Just chug the koolaid and make this quit last forever. Quit being so righteous.
Big Tobacco is pure evil.
Funny you should mention "chugging the kool-aid" in a discussion on the cult side of KTC. LOL.
I meant it to be funny (or ironic). I went to college. Tobacco companies are targeting children. It's not a choice. It's a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government. It is pure evil and definitely not a choice.
"It is a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government."
So is alcohol. But there are those who can enjoy a beer every now and then, and there are those who are abusive alcoholics.
To suggest that we have no choice is truly playing the victim card. I made my choice to dip- and then I made my choice to quit.
To suggest that we have no choice also diminishes the efforts of all those people who have refused to use tobacco in any form, ever. They had a choice, and they made the right choice from the beginning.
Tobacco is the leading cause of preventable death in the world. Evil people are expanding their fortunes from killing you and your children. It is as addictive as heroin, meth, and crack.
I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression. Until you see it as an act of aggression designed to steal time and money from people then we are going to disagree. If you see it for what it is it will fall right in line with your political philosophy.
"I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression."
I truly do not. It is actually one of the more restrictive markets, these days at least.
In the debate over personal choice versus victims of aggressive marketing, what more evidence do you need when a product you're trying to sell is mandated to have a label on it which says quite clearly in black and white that THIS PRODUCT WILL KILL YOU.
Sounds like you've made your choice!
Do you have kids? Do you remember the kids dipping/smoking in school?
I'm 28 with a 6-month old boy.
Tobacco marketing and advertising has been the subject of very strict legislation in recent years. It's not the same playing field as it was decades ago. So let's not kid ourselves. Before I started my quit, I was well aware of the health issues, the carcinogens, and the BIG BLACK LABEL reminding me that I will die if I opened the tin.
Spare me the big bad wolf of aggressive tobacco marketing. Let's talk today, let's talk 2014. I see more anti-tobacco advertising than anything else!
In addition to the marketing aspect, there is legislation on the table here in NYC where tobacco products cannot even be visible in the store. It must be stored under the counter. You also have to be 21 (not 18) in NYC to buy tobacco.
Legislators, public health agencies, and non-profits are doing more than ever to combat tobacco use in all forms. I see zero aggressive marketing- just plenty of people choosing to ignore the warnings because they wanna get a nice buzz. It's a design flaw in humanity- to only see the short-term gains and ignore the long-term consequences.
It literally takes one or two cigarettes/dips to get a person hooked. Read the science of nicotine addiction. The first cigarettes or chews that a kid has are not from a pack he bought at the gas station. He either stole them from his parents or got them from a friend. The shit is designed (nicotine levels are regulated exactly in each dose by the multi-billion dollar manufacturer) to deliver a punch that will trigger addiction at a very high rate.
Do a little research into how these tobacco companies do business in other parts of the world where advertising regulations are unheard of, and where product warning labels are not required.
You can get this poison on any street corner and if you're addicted it takes 20 years off of your life. You need to understand that we ARE being assaulted by this industry with aggression. Big tobacco is killing millions every year for profit. That is not freedom my friend. How hard have you fought for your freedom these first few months? What if you didn't have KTC to keep you accountable? Most people are not successful quitting. It's because at the point of addiction it is no longer a personal choice. The addicts are enslaved by a product designed to enslave them, steal their money, and kill them early. The shit sells itself in middle school parking lots. No marketing is needed. It's cheap. It's a fix. It's a nasty addiction.
My choice is that I will remain free by any means necessary. A huge part of my quit and a lot of others that I know here is their hatred for big tobacco. I haven't gotten into the discussion of whether or not nicotine addiction is a personal choice before. So I do appreciate you sharing your viewpoint. But I wholeheartedly disagree. Tobacco companies are assaulting the world's population, plain and simple. For us here at KTC, due to it's wonderful resources, we are educated to make the choice to be free. We have to fight to be free. But for most people out there it is not a choice. Not a choice at all.
EDIT - the warning labels didn't cause me to make a choice in the least.
-
As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).
Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.
I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.
My issues with your statement above:
#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.
#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.
#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.
I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.
P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.
1. Automatically linking libertarianism with being "seriously pro big tobacco" reveals your inherent misunderstanding of the philosophy of libertarianism.
We are all responsible for our own actions, so yes, tobacco IS a personal choice. That is not a ridiculous belief, as you claim. No one put a gun to my head when I took my first dip. As an individual with free will, I make conscious lifestyle choices, fully aware of all consequences. Which is why I am now quit.
Large sugary drinks were nearly banned here in NYC, because the state believes it gets to decide what is healthy and unhealthy. Where do we draw the line? These are the big-picture questions with which libertarians have real issues. Take big tobacco to task for marketing to children, ban "fun" flavors of dip (which is NYC law), and even require vendors to remove all tobacco products from being publicly visible. Fine. But to completely ban a substance because the state is looking out for your personal health? On that I call bull shit. Paternalist bull shit, to be more precise. Let me make my own INDIVIDUAL decisions, both bad and good.
2. There are definitely online cult-like qualities exhibited on KTC in my opinion. I know I am not the first person to voice this on here. And yes, I have studied cult movements in relation to sociology and political science (I am university professor). One of the hallmark qualities of a cult is the admonishing of anyone with ideas that don't fit within the running ideology. I have seen KTC members do this to noobies with trophy cans (empties). It's as though no one can acknowledge that a trophy can might help better motivate an individual in their quit. So instead of having a real dialogue, you run them off the site. Doesn't really jive with the whole "brotherhood" line being peddled.
3. I have numbers with other quitters, they know who they are. Have not met other quitters in person due to work and the fact that there are very few active NYC-based quitters. Also, used chat early on but haven't since due to work.
IMO, my viewpoint of KTC having cult-like aspects does not help nor hinder my quit. It is simply an observation. Now, I do think the site could improve as a whole if members stopped running newbies off for having trophy cans. You want to call someone out for being dishonorable? No problem with that- when it comes to caving. But a trophy can being dishonorable? REALLY?
But for me personally, the culty aspects really makes no difference. Again, just a simple observation. KTC serves its purposes, which is keeping me accountable in my quit.
Whatever. Just chug the koolaid and make this quit last forever. Quit being so righteous.
Big Tobacco is pure evil.
Funny you should mention "chugging the kool-aid" in a discussion on the cult side of KTC. LOL.
I meant it to be funny (or ironic). I went to college. Tobacco companies are targeting children. It's not a choice. It's a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government. It is pure evil and definitely not a choice.
"It is a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government."
So is alcohol. But there are those who can enjoy a beer every now and then, and there are those who are abusive alcoholics.
To suggest that we have no choice is truly playing the victim card. I made my choice to dip- and then I made my choice to quit.
To suggest that we have no choice also diminishes the efforts of all those people who have refused to use tobacco in any form, ever. They had a choice, and they made the right choice from the beginning.
Tobacco is the leading cause of preventable death in the world. Evil people are expanding their fortunes from killing you and your children. It is as addictive as heroin, meth, and crack.
I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression. Until you see it as an act of aggression designed to steal time and money from people then we are going to disagree. If you see it for what it is it will fall right in line with your political philosophy.
"I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression."
I truly do not. It is actually one of the more restrictive markets, these days at least.
In the debate over personal choice versus victims of aggressive marketing, what more evidence do you need when a product you're trying to sell is mandated to have a label on it which says quite clearly in black and white that THIS PRODUCT WILL KILL YOU.
Sounds like you've made your choice!
Do you have kids? Do you remember the kids dipping/smoking in school?
I'm 28 with a 6-month old boy.
Tobacco marketing and advertising has been the subject of very strict legislation in recent years. It's not the same playing field as it was decades ago. So let's not kid ourselves. Before I started my quit, I was well aware of the health issues, the carcinogens, and the BIG BLACK LABEL reminding me that I will die if I opened the tin.
Spare me the big bad wolf of aggressive tobacco marketing. Let's talk today, let's talk 2014. I see more anti-tobacco advertising than anything else!
In addition to the marketing aspect, there is legislation on the table here in NYC where tobacco products cannot even be visible in the store. It must be stored under the counter. You also have to be 21 (not 18) in NYC to buy tobacco.
Legislators, public health agencies, and non-profits are doing more than ever to combat tobacco use in all forms. I see zero aggressive marketing- just plenty of people choosing to ignore the warnings because they wanna get a nice buzz. It's a design flaw in humanity- to only see the short-term gains and ignore the long-term consequences.
It literally takes one or two cigarettes/dips to get a person hooked. Read the science of nicotine addiction. The first cigarettes or chews that a kid has are not from a pack he bought at the gas station. He either stole them from his parents or got them from a friend. The shit is designed (nicotine levels are regulated exactly in each dose by the multi-billion dollar manufacturer) to deliver a punch that will trigger addiction at a very high rate.
Do a little research into how these tobacco companies do business in other parts of the world where advertising regulations are unheard of, and where product warning labels are not required.
You can get this poison on any street corner and if you're addicted it takes 20 years off of your life. You need to understand that we ARE being assaulted by this industry with aggression. Big tobacco is killing millions every year for profit. That is not freedom my friend. How hard have you fought for your freedom these first few months? What if you didn't have KTC to keep you accountable? Most people are not successful quitting. It's because at the point of addiction it is no longer a personal choice. The addicts are enslaved by a product designed to enslave them, steal their money, and kill them early. The shit sells itself in middle school parking lots. No marketing is needed. It's cheap. It's a fix. It's a nasty addiction.
My choice is that I will remain free by any means necessary. A huge part of my quit and a lot of others that I know here is their hatred for big tobacco. I haven't gotten into the discussion of whether or not nicotine addiction is a personal choice before. So I do appreciate you sharing your viewpoint. But I wholeheartedly disagree. Tobacco companies are assaulting the world's population, plain and simple. For us here at KTC, due to it's wonderful resources, we are educated to make the choice to be free. We have to fight to be free. But for most people out there it is not a choice. Not a choice at all.
EDIT - the warning labels didn't cause me to make a choice in the least.
I know all about the science behind maximizing addictive chemicals to create lifetime buyers of tobacco.
I knew it before I started dipping. That still didn't stop me. Because I made (erroneous as it were) my OWN choice to try it anyways. I CHOSE to assume that, somehow, my own body chemistry was somehow different that the rest of humanity. No tobacco company sold me on that idea. Our own fallacies as human beings are responsible for that. And we can only chalk that up to personal choice.
It's good to see different perspectives. But for me, when it comes to dip, I don't blame anyone but myself for getting addicted. Big tobacco didn't force me to do it. I did it just because.
On the other hand, I still will continue to call out the cult-like aspects exhibited on KTC. I mentioned in another thread about someone who came here and spoke of a trophy tin. Needless to say, he left the site because of the holier than thou attitude he received as a result.
I see nothing wrong with a trophy tin. If that's what keeps you quit, then fine. By any means necessary. There was another guy talking about turning his collection of empty tins into a pool table or something. I say, go for it.
I must follow 50 instagram accounts of individuals celebrating dip life, posting videos of packing enormous lips. Don't know why I do it. But in some weird way, it has contributed to my quit.
I await the next "veteran" to come on here and play pseudo-psychologist, and tell me to get off the site because that type of behavior will lead to a crave and that is not tolerated here.
Let's not all try to play psychologist and assume we understand the inner-workings of the behavior patterns of someone who, in all likelihood, we never met before and will never meet.
-
As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).
Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.
I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.
My issues with your statement above:
#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.
#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.
#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.
I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.
P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.
1. Automatically linking libertarianism with being "seriously pro big tobacco" reveals your inherent misunderstanding of the philosophy of libertarianism.
We are all responsible for our own actions, so yes, tobacco IS a personal choice. That is not a ridiculous belief, as you claim. No one put a gun to my head when I took my first dip. As an individual with free will, I make conscious lifestyle choices, fully aware of all consequences. Which is why I am now quit.
Large sugary drinks were nearly banned here in NYC, because the state believes it gets to decide what is healthy and unhealthy. Where do we draw the line? These are the big-picture questions with which libertarians have real issues. Take big tobacco to task for marketing to children, ban "fun" flavors of dip (which is NYC law), and even require vendors to remove all tobacco products from being publicly visible. Fine. But to completely ban a substance because the state is looking out for your personal health? On that I call bull shit. Paternalist bull shit, to be more precise. Let me make my own INDIVIDUAL decisions, both bad and good.
2. There are definitely online cult-like qualities exhibited on KTC in my opinion. I know I am not the first person to voice this on here. And yes, I have studied cult movements in relation to sociology and political science (I am university professor). One of the hallmark qualities of a cult is the admonishing of anyone with ideas that don't fit within the running ideology. I have seen KTC members do this to noobies with trophy cans (empties). It's as though no one can acknowledge that a trophy can might help better motivate an individual in their quit. So instead of having a real dialogue, you run them off the site. Doesn't really jive with the whole "brotherhood" line being peddled.
3. I have numbers with other quitters, they know who they are. Have not met other quitters in person due to work and the fact that there are very few active NYC-based quitters. Also, used chat early on but haven't since due to work.
IMO, my viewpoint of KTC having cult-like aspects does not help nor hinder my quit. It is simply an observation. Now, I do think the site could improve as a whole if members stopped running newbies off for having trophy cans. You want to call someone out for being dishonorable? No problem with that- when it comes to caving. But a trophy can being dishonorable? REALLY?
But for me personally, the culty aspects really makes no difference. Again, just a simple observation. KTC serves its purposes, which is keeping me accountable in my quit.
Whatever. Just chug the koolaid and make this quit last forever. Quit being so righteous.
Big Tobacco is pure evil.
Funny you should mention "chugging the kool-aid" in a discussion on the cult side of KTC. LOL.
I meant it to be funny (or ironic). I went to college. Tobacco companies are targeting children. It's not a choice. It's a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government. It is pure evil and definitely not a choice.
"It is a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government."
So is alcohol. But there are those who can enjoy a beer every now and then, and there are those who are abusive alcoholics.
To suggest that we have no choice is truly playing the victim card. I made my choice to dip- and then I made my choice to quit.
To suggest that we have no choice also diminishes the efforts of all those people who have refused to use tobacco in any form, ever. They had a choice, and they made the right choice from the beginning.
Tobacco is the leading cause of preventable death in the world. Evil people are expanding their fortunes from killing you and your children. It is as addictive as heroin, meth, and crack.
I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression. Until you see it as an act of aggression designed to steal time and money from people then we are going to disagree. If you see it for what it is it will fall right in line with your political philosophy.
"I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression."
I truly do not. It is actually one of the more restrictive markets, these days at least.
In the debate over personal choice versus victims of aggressive marketing, what more evidence do you need when a product you're trying to sell is mandated to have a label on it which says quite clearly in black and white that THIS PRODUCT WILL KILL YOU.
Sounds like you've made your choice!
Do you have kids? Do you remember the kids dipping/smoking in school?
I'm 28 with a 6-month old boy.
Tobacco marketing and advertising has been the subject of very strict legislation in recent years. It's not the same playing field as it was decades ago. So let's not kid ourselves. Before I started my quit, I was well aware of the health issues, the carcinogens, and the BIG BLACK LABEL reminding me that I will die if I opened the tin.
Spare me the big bad wolf of aggressive tobacco marketing. Let's talk today, let's talk 2014. I see more anti-tobacco advertising than anything else!
In addition to the marketing aspect, there is legislation on the table here in NYC where tobacco products cannot even be visible in the store. It must be stored under the counter. You also have to be 21 (not 18) in NYC to buy tobacco.
Legislators, public health agencies, and non-profits are doing more than ever to combat tobacco use in all forms. I see zero aggressive marketing- just plenty of people choosing to ignore the warnings because they wanna get a nice buzz. It's a design flaw in humanity- to only see the short-term gains and ignore the long-term consequences.
It literally takes one or two cigarettes/dips to get a person hooked. Read the science of nicotine addiction. The first cigarettes or chews that a kid has are not from a pack he bought at the gas station. He either stole them from his parents or got them from a friend. The shit is designed (nicotine levels are regulated exactly in each dose by the multi-billion dollar manufacturer) to deliver a punch that will trigger addiction at a very high rate.
Do a little research into how these tobacco companies do business in other parts of the world where advertising regulations are unheard of, and where product warning labels are not required.
You can get this poison on any street corner and if you're addicted it takes 20 years off of your life. You need to understand that we ARE being assaulted by this industry with aggression. Big tobacco is killing millions every year for profit. That is not freedom my friend. How hard have you fought for your freedom these first few months? What if you didn't have KTC to keep you accountable? Most people are not successful quitting. It's because at the point of addiction it is no longer a personal choice. The addicts are enslaved by a product designed to enslave them, steal their money, and kill them early. The shit sells itself in middle school parking lots. No marketing is needed. It's cheap. It's a fix. It's a nasty addiction.
My choice is that I will remain free by any means necessary. A huge part of my quit and a lot of others that I know here is their hatred for big tobacco. I haven't gotten into the discussion of whether or not nicotine addiction is a personal choice before. So I do appreciate you sharing your viewpoint. But I wholeheartedly disagree. Tobacco companies are assaulting the world's population, plain and simple. For us here at KTC, due to it's wonderful resources, we are educated to make the choice to be free. We have to fight to be free. But for most people out there it is not a choice. Not a choice at all.
EDIT - the warning labels didn't cause me to make a choice in the least.
I know all about the science behind maximizing addictive chemicals to create lifetime buyers of tobacco.
I knew it before I started dipping. That still didn't stop me. Because I made (erroneous as it were) my OWN choice to try it anyways. I CHOSE to assume that, somehow, my own body chemistry was somehow different that the rest of humanity. No tobacco company sold me on that idea. Our own fallacies as human beings are responsible for that. And we can only chalk that up to personal choice.
It's good to see different perspectives. But for me, when it comes to dip, I don't blame anyone but myself for getting addicted. Big tobacco didn't force me to do it. I did it just because.
On the other hand, I still will continue to call out the cult-like aspects exhibited on KTC. I mentioned in another thread about someone who came here and spoke of a trophy tin. Needless to say, he left the site because of the holier than thou attitude he received as a result.
I see nothing wrong with a trophy tin. If that's what keeps you quit, then fine. By any means necessary. There was another guy talking about turning his collection of empty tins into a pool table or something. I say, go for it.
I must follow 50 instagram accounts of individuals celebrating dip life, posting videos of packing enormous lips. Don't know why I do it. But in some weird way, it has contributed to my quit.
I await the next "veteran" to come on here and play pseudo-psychologist, and tell me to get off the site because that type of behavior will lead to a crave and that is not tolerated here.
Let's not all try to play psychologist and assume we understand the inner-workings of the behavior patterns of someone who, in all likelihood, we never met before and will never meet.
You are not going to budge, I see.
From where I sit. You didn't know the level to which you would be addicted before you made your "choice" to try tobacco. There is no way you knew. Non nicotine addicts don't understand. Obviously you chose to try it. You didn't choose this addiction. Why on earth would anyone choose this addiction? People choose to quit all the time. But most fail because they can't overcome the addiction. To me addiction is not a choice, it is an undermined assault.
If you want to continue criticizing KTC for aspects that you perceive to be "cult-like" then feel free. It only makes you look like kind of like a passive-aggressive douche nozzle. I feel like you're afraid that you are abandoning your political philosophy if you admit that the mass of nicotine addicts in this country/world do not have a choice when it comes to this addiction. Tobacco is cultural and it's usage starts at an early age in many areas. At an age when educated choices are not made. Most people are not university professors such as yourself. Most people don't read. Most people live day to day.
Also, there is a huge difference between a trophy tin and an emergency can. The guy we conversed about earlier, on another thread, had an emergency can, and then lied about disposing it. Major bullshit, and I hope you see why I would have a problem with that. Nicotine addicts need wake up calls. If they choose to air their their thoughts on KTC, then they are subject to the responses they receive. I do prefer constructive criticism and good manners. But holding to the belief that distancing one's self from reminders of tobacco, especially early in the quit, does not constitute a cult mentality. We KILL the can here, we don't save cans for trophies or emergencies. We fucking KILL it. Hence the name.
I've enjoyed the discussion thus far.
-
As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).
Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.
I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.
My issues with your statement above:
#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.
#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.
#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.
I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.
P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.
1. Automatically linking libertarianism with being "seriously pro big tobacco" reveals your inherent misunderstanding of the philosophy of libertarianism.
We are all responsible for our own actions, so yes, tobacco IS a personal choice. That is not a ridiculous belief, as you claim. No one put a gun to my head when I took my first dip. As an individual with free will, I make conscious lifestyle choices, fully aware of all consequences. Which is why I am now quit.
Large sugary drinks were nearly banned here in NYC, because the state believes it gets to decide what is healthy and unhealthy. Where do we draw the line? These are the big-picture questions with which libertarians have real issues. Take big tobacco to task for marketing to children, ban "fun" flavors of dip (which is NYC law), and even require vendors to remove all tobacco products from being publicly visible. Fine. But to completely ban a substance because the state is looking out for your personal health? On that I call bull shit. Paternalist bull shit, to be more precise. Let me make my own INDIVIDUAL decisions, both bad and good.
2. There are definitely online cult-like qualities exhibited on KTC in my opinion. I know I am not the first person to voice this on here. And yes, I have studied cult movements in relation to sociology and political science (I am university professor). One of the hallmark qualities of a cult is the admonishing of anyone with ideas that don't fit within the running ideology. I have seen KTC members do this to noobies with trophy cans (empties). It's as though no one can acknowledge that a trophy can might help better motivate an individual in their quit. So instead of having a real dialogue, you run them off the site. Doesn't really jive with the whole "brotherhood" line being peddled.
3. I have numbers with other quitters, they know who they are. Have not met other quitters in person due to work and the fact that there are very few active NYC-based quitters. Also, used chat early on but haven't since due to work.
IMO, my viewpoint of KTC having cult-like aspects does not help nor hinder my quit. It is simply an observation. Now, I do think the site could improve as a whole if members stopped running newbies off for having trophy cans. You want to call someone out for being dishonorable? No problem with that- when it comes to caving. But a trophy can being dishonorable? REALLY?
But for me personally, the culty aspects really makes no difference. Again, just a simple observation. KTC serves its purposes, which is keeping me accountable in my quit.
Whatever. Just chug the koolaid and make this quit last forever. Quit being so righteous.
Big Tobacco is pure evil.
Funny you should mention "chugging the kool-aid" in a discussion on the cult side of KTC. LOL.
I meant it to be funny (or ironic). I went to college. Tobacco companies are targeting children. It's not a choice. It's a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government. It is pure evil and definitely not a choice.
"It is a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government."
So is alcohol. But there are those who can enjoy a beer every now and then, and there are those who are abusive alcoholics.
To suggest that we have no choice is truly playing the victim card. I made my choice to dip- and then I made my choice to quit.
To suggest that we have no choice also diminishes the efforts of all those people who have refused to use tobacco in any form, ever. They had a choice, and they made the right choice from the beginning.
Tobacco is the leading cause of preventable death in the world. Evil people are expanding their fortunes from killing you and your children. It is as addictive as heroin, meth, and crack.
I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression. Until you see it as an act of aggression designed to steal time and money from people then we are going to disagree. If you see it for what it is it will fall right in line with your political philosophy.
"I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression."
I truly do not. It is actually one of the more restrictive markets, these days at least.
In the debate over personal choice versus victims of aggressive marketing, what more evidence do you need when a product you're trying to sell is mandated to have a label on it which says quite clearly in black and white that THIS PRODUCT WILL KILL YOU.
Sounds like you've made your choice!
Do you have kids? Do you remember the kids dipping/smoking in school?
I'm 28 with a 6-month old boy.
Tobacco marketing and advertising has been the subject of very strict legislation in recent years. It's not the same playing field as it was decades ago. So let's not kid ourselves. Before I started my quit, I was well aware of the health issues, the carcinogens, and the BIG BLACK LABEL reminding me that I will die if I opened the tin.
Spare me the big bad wolf of aggressive tobacco marketing. Let's talk today, let's talk 2014. I see more anti-tobacco advertising than anything else!
In addition to the marketing aspect, there is legislation on the table here in NYC where tobacco products cannot even be visible in the store. It must be stored under the counter. You also have to be 21 (not 18) in NYC to buy tobacco.
Legislators, public health agencies, and non-profits are doing more than ever to combat tobacco use in all forms. I see zero aggressive marketing- just plenty of people choosing to ignore the warnings because they wanna get a nice buzz. It's a design flaw in humanity- to only see the short-term gains and ignore the long-term consequences.
It literally takes one or two cigarettes/dips to get a person hooked. Read the science of nicotine addiction. The first cigarettes or chews that a kid has are not from a pack he bought at the gas station. He either stole them from his parents or got them from a friend. The shit is designed (nicotine levels are regulated exactly in each dose by the multi-billion dollar manufacturer) to deliver a punch that will trigger addiction at a very high rate.
Do a little research into how these tobacco companies do business in other parts of the world where advertising regulations are unheard of, and where product warning labels are not required.
You can get this poison on any street corner and if you're addicted it takes 20 years off of your life. You need to understand that we ARE being assaulted by this industry with aggression. Big tobacco is killing millions every year for profit. That is not freedom my friend. How hard have you fought for your freedom these first few months? What if you didn't have KTC to keep you accountable? Most people are not successful quitting. It's because at the point of addiction it is no longer a personal choice. The addicts are enslaved by a product designed to enslave them, steal their money, and kill them early. The shit sells itself in middle school parking lots. No marketing is needed. It's cheap. It's a fix. It's a nasty addiction.
My choice is that I will remain free by any means necessary. A huge part of my quit and a lot of others that I know here is their hatred for big tobacco. I haven't gotten into the discussion of whether or not nicotine addiction is a personal choice before. So I do appreciate you sharing your viewpoint. But I wholeheartedly disagree. Tobacco companies are assaulting the world's population, plain and simple. For us here at KTC, due to it's wonderful resources, we are educated to make the choice to be free. We have to fight to be free. But for most people out there it is not a choice. Not a choice at all.
EDIT - the warning labels didn't cause me to make a choice in the least.
I know all about the science behind maximizing addictive chemicals to create lifetime buyers of tobacco.
I knew it before I started dipping. That still didn't stop me. Because I made (erroneous as it were) my OWN choice to try it anyways. I CHOSE to assume that, somehow, my own body chemistry was somehow different that the rest of humanity. No tobacco company sold me on that idea. Our own fallacies as human beings are responsible for that. And we can only chalk that up to personal choice.
It's good to see different perspectives. But for me, when it comes to dip, I don't blame anyone but myself for getting addicted. Big tobacco didn't force me to do it. I did it just because.
On the other hand, I still will continue to call out the cult-like aspects exhibited on KTC. I mentioned in another thread about someone who came here and spoke of a trophy tin. Needless to say, he left the site because of the holier than thou attitude he received as a result.
I see nothing wrong with a trophy tin. If that's what keeps you quit, then fine. By any means necessary. There was another guy talking about turning his collection of empty tins into a pool table or something. I say, go for it.
I must follow 50 instagram accounts of individuals celebrating dip life, posting videos of packing enormous lips. Don't know why I do it. But in some weird way, it has contributed to my quit.
I await the next "veteran" to come on here and play pseudo-psychologist, and tell me to get off the site because that type of behavior will lead to a crave and that is not tolerated here.
Let's not all try to play psychologist and assume we understand the inner-workings of the behavior patterns of someone who, in all likelihood, we never met before and will never meet.
You are not going to budge, I see.
From where I sit. You didn't know the level to which you would be addicted before you made your "choice" to try tobacco. There is no way you knew. Non nicotine addicts don't understand. Obviously you chose to try it. You didn't choose this addiction. Why on earth would anyone choose this addiction? People choose to quit all the time. But most fail because they can't overcome the addiction. To me addiction is not a choice, it is an undermined assault.
If you want to continue criticizing KTC for aspects that you perceive to be "cult-like" then feel free. It only makes you look like kind of like a passive-aggressive douche nozzle. I feel like you're afraid that you are abandoning your political philosophy if you admit that the mass of nicotine addicts in this country/world do not have a choice when it comes to this addiction. Tobacco is cultural and it's usage starts at an early age in many areas. At an age when educated choices are not made. Most people are not university professors such as yourself. Most people don't read. Most people live day to day.
Also, there is a huge difference between a trophy tin and an emergency can. The guy we conversed about earlier, on another thread, had an emergency can, and then lied about disposing it. Major bullshit, and I hope you see why I would have a problem with that. Nicotine addicts need wake up calls. If they choose to air their their thoughts on KTC, then they are subject to the responses they receive. I do prefer constructive criticism and good manners. But holding to the belief that distancing one's self from reminders of tobacco, especially early in the quit, does not constitute a cult mentality. We KILL the can here, we don't save cans for trophies or emergencies. We fucking KILL it. Hence the name.
I've enjoyed the discussion thus far.
Per the notion on tobacco being cultural: that is not necessarily the case. Dipping is not part of NYC culture AT ALL, and here I stand before you- someone born and raised in Brooklyn, who started dipping at 25, long after undergrad and grad school. That's more than enough years of schooling under my belt to know what's good for me and what's bad for me. And certainly no cultural pressures to speak of, being a city boy and all.
Per the notion of choice: what do you say to all those people who choose to never use a tobacco product? How were they able to escape the brainwashing of so-called "aggressive marketing" and "assault" by big tobacco?
-
As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).
Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.
I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.
My issues with your statement above:
#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.
#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.
#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.
I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.
P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.
1. Automatically linking libertarianism with being "seriously pro big tobacco" reveals your inherent misunderstanding of the philosophy of libertarianism.
We are all responsible for our own actions, so yes, tobacco IS a personal choice. That is not a ridiculous belief, as you claim. No one put a gun to my head when I took my first dip. As an individual with free will, I make conscious lifestyle choices, fully aware of all consequences. Which is why I am now quit.
Large sugary drinks were nearly banned here in NYC, because the state believes it gets to decide what is healthy and unhealthy. Where do we draw the line? These are the big-picture questions with which libertarians have real issues. Take big tobacco to task for marketing to children, ban "fun" flavors of dip (which is NYC law), and even require vendors to remove all tobacco products from being publicly visible. Fine. But to completely ban a substance because the state is looking out for your personal health? On that I call bull shit. Paternalist bull shit, to be more precise. Let me make my own INDIVIDUAL decisions, both bad and good.
2. There are definitely online cult-like qualities exhibited on KTC in my opinion. I know I am not the first person to voice this on here. And yes, I have studied cult movements in relation to sociology and political science (I am university professor). One of the hallmark qualities of a cult is the admonishing of anyone with ideas that don't fit within the running ideology. I have seen KTC members do this to noobies with trophy cans (empties). It's as though no one can acknowledge that a trophy can might help better motivate an individual in their quit. So instead of having a real dialogue, you run them off the site. Doesn't really jive with the whole "brotherhood" line being peddled.
3. I have numbers with other quitters, they know who they are. Have not met other quitters in person due to work and the fact that there are very few active NYC-based quitters. Also, used chat early on but haven't since due to work.
IMO, my viewpoint of KTC having cult-like aspects does not help nor hinder my quit. It is simply an observation. Now, I do think the site could improve as a whole if members stopped running newbies off for having trophy cans. You want to call someone out for being dishonorable? No problem with that- when it comes to caving. But a trophy can being dishonorable? REALLY?
But for me personally, the culty aspects really makes no difference. Again, just a simple observation. KTC serves its purposes, which is keeping me accountable in my quit.
Whatever. Just chug the koolaid and make this quit last forever. Quit being so righteous.
Big Tobacco is pure evil.
Funny you should mention "chugging the kool-aid" in a discussion on the cult side of KTC. LOL.
I meant it to be funny (or ironic). I went to college. Tobacco companies are targeting children. It's not a choice. It's a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government. It is pure evil and definitely not a choice.
"It is a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government."
So is alcohol. But there are those who can enjoy a beer every now and then, and there are those who are abusive alcoholics.
To suggest that we have no choice is truly playing the victim card. I made my choice to dip- and then I made my choice to quit.
To suggest that we have no choice also diminishes the efforts of all those people who have refused to use tobacco in any form, ever. They had a choice, and they made the right choice from the beginning.
Tobacco is the leading cause of preventable death in the world. Evil people are expanding their fortunes from killing you and your children. It is as addictive as heroin, meth, and crack.
I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression. Until you see it as an act of aggression designed to steal time and money from people then we are going to disagree. If you see it for what it is it will fall right in line with your political philosophy.
"I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression."
I truly do not. It is actually one of the more restrictive markets, these days at least.
In the debate over personal choice versus victims of aggressive marketing, what more evidence do you need when a product you're trying to sell is mandated to have a label on it which says quite clearly in black and white that THIS PRODUCT WILL KILL YOU.
Sounds like you've made your choice!
Do you have kids? Do you remember the kids dipping/smoking in school?
I'm 28 with a 6-month old boy.
Tobacco marketing and advertising has been the subject of very strict legislation in recent years. It's not the same playing field as it was decades ago. So let's not kid ourselves. Before I started my quit, I was well aware of the health issues, the carcinogens, and the BIG BLACK LABEL reminding me that I will die if I opened the tin.
Spare me the big bad wolf of aggressive tobacco marketing. Let's talk today, let's talk 2014. I see more anti-tobacco advertising than anything else!
In addition to the marketing aspect, there is legislation on the table here in NYC where tobacco products cannot even be visible in the store. It must be stored under the counter. You also have to be 21 (not 18) in NYC to buy tobacco.
Legislators, public health agencies, and non-profits are doing more than ever to combat tobacco use in all forms. I see zero aggressive marketing- just plenty of people choosing to ignore the warnings because they wanna get a nice buzz. It's a design flaw in humanity- to only see the short-term gains and ignore the long-term consequences.
It literally takes one or two cigarettes/dips to get a person hooked. Read the science of nicotine addiction. The first cigarettes or chews that a kid has are not from a pack he bought at the gas station. He either stole them from his parents or got them from a friend. The shit is designed (nicotine levels are regulated exactly in each dose by the multi-billion dollar manufacturer) to deliver a punch that will trigger addiction at a very high rate.
Do a little research into how these tobacco companies do business in other parts of the world where advertising regulations are unheard of, and where product warning labels are not required.
You can get this poison on any street corner and if you're addicted it takes 20 years off of your life. You need to understand that we ARE being assaulted by this industry with aggression. Big tobacco is killing millions every year for profit. That is not freedom my friend. How hard have you fought for your freedom these first few months? What if you didn't have KTC to keep you accountable? Most people are not successful quitting. It's because at the point of addiction it is no longer a personal choice. The addicts are enslaved by a product designed to enslave them, steal their money, and kill them early. The shit sells itself in middle school parking lots. No marketing is needed. It's cheap. It's a fix. It's a nasty addiction.
My choice is that I will remain free by any means necessary. A huge part of my quit and a lot of others that I know here is their hatred for big tobacco. I haven't gotten into the discussion of whether or not nicotine addiction is a personal choice before. So I do appreciate you sharing your viewpoint. But I wholeheartedly disagree. Tobacco companies are assaulting the world's population, plain and simple. For us here at KTC, due to it's wonderful resources, we are educated to make the choice to be free. We have to fight to be free. But for most people out there it is not a choice. Not a choice at all.
EDIT - the warning labels didn't cause me to make a choice in the least.
I know all about the science behind maximizing addictive chemicals to create lifetime buyers of tobacco.
I knew it before I started dipping. That still didn't stop me. Because I made (erroneous as it were) my OWN choice to try it anyways. I CHOSE to assume that, somehow, my own body chemistry was somehow different that the rest of humanity. No tobacco company sold me on that idea. Our own fallacies as human beings are responsible for that. And we can only chalk that up to personal choice.
It's good to see different perspectives. But for me, when it comes to dip, I don't blame anyone but myself for getting addicted. Big tobacco didn't force me to do it. I did it just because.
On the other hand, I still will continue to call out the cult-like aspects exhibited on KTC. I mentioned in another thread about someone who came here and spoke of a trophy tin. Needless to say, he left the site because of the holier than thou attitude he received as a result.
I see nothing wrong with a trophy tin. If that's what keeps you quit, then fine. By any means necessary. There was another guy talking about turning his collection of empty tins into a pool table or something. I say, go for it.
I must follow 50 instagram accounts of individuals celebrating dip life, posting videos of packing enormous lips. Don't know why I do it. But in some weird way, it has contributed to my quit.
I await the next "veteran" to come on here and play pseudo-psychologist, and tell me to get off the site because that type of behavior will lead to a crave and that is not tolerated here.
Let's not all try to play psychologist and assume we understand the inner-workings of the behavior patterns of someone who, in all likelihood, we never met before and will never meet.
You are not going to budge, I see.
From where I sit. You didn't know the level to which you would be addicted before you made your "choice" to try tobacco. There is no way you knew. Non nicotine addicts don't understand. Obviously you chose to try it. You didn't choose this addiction. Why on earth would anyone choose this addiction? People choose to quit all the time. But most fail because they can't overcome the addiction. To me addiction is not a choice, it is an undermined assault.
If you want to continue criticizing KTC for aspects that you perceive to be "cult-like" then feel free. It only makes you look like kind of like a passive-aggressive douche nozzle. I feel like you're afraid that you are abandoning your political philosophy if you admit that the mass of nicotine addicts in this country/world do not have a choice when it comes to this addiction. Tobacco is cultural and it's usage starts at an early age in many areas. At an age when educated choices are not made. Most people are not university professors such as yourself. Most people don't read. Most people live day to day.
Also, there is a huge difference between a trophy tin and an emergency can. The guy we conversed about earlier, on another thread, had an emergency can, and then lied about disposing it. Major bullshit, and I hope you see why I would have a problem with that. Nicotine addicts need wake up calls. If they choose to air their their thoughts on KTC, then they are subject to the responses they receive. I do prefer constructive criticism and good manners. But holding to the belief that distancing one's self from reminders of tobacco, especially early in the quit, does not constitute a cult mentality. We KILL the can here, we don't save cans for trophies or emergencies. We fucking KILL it. Hence the name.
I've enjoyed the discussion thus far.
Per the notion on tobacco being cultural: that is not necessarily the case. Dipping is not part of NYC culture AT ALL, and here I stand before you- someone born and raised in Brooklyn, who started dipping at 25, long after undergrad and grad school. That's more than enough years of schooling under my belt to know what's good for me and what's bad for me. And certainly no cultural pressures to speak of, being a city boy and all.
Per the notion of choice: what do you say to all those people who choose to never use a tobacco product? How were they able to escape the brainwashing of so-called "aggressive marketing" and "assault" by big tobacco?
If you think that big tobacco is not aggressively marketing their product then you are simply mistaken.
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As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).
Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.
I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.
My issues with your statement above:
#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.
#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.
#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.
I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.
P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.
1. Automatically linking libertarianism with being "seriously pro big tobacco" reveals your inherent misunderstanding of the philosophy of libertarianism.
We are all responsible for our own actions, so yes, tobacco IS a personal choice. That is not a ridiculous belief, as you claim. No one put a gun to my head when I took my first dip. As an individual with free will, I make conscious lifestyle choices, fully aware of all consequences. Which is why I am now quit.
Large sugary drinks were nearly banned here in NYC, because the state believes it gets to decide what is healthy and unhealthy. Where do we draw the line? These are the big-picture questions with which libertarians have real issues. Take big tobacco to task for marketing to children, ban "fun" flavors of dip (which is NYC law), and even require vendors to remove all tobacco products from being publicly visible. Fine. But to completely ban a substance because the state is looking out for your personal health? On that I call bull shit. Paternalist bull shit, to be more precise. Let me make my own INDIVIDUAL decisions, both bad and good.
2. There are definitely online cult-like qualities exhibited on KTC in my opinion. I know I am not the first person to voice this on here. And yes, I have studied cult movements in relation to sociology and political science (I am university professor). One of the hallmark qualities of a cult is the admonishing of anyone with ideas that don't fit within the running ideology. I have seen KTC members do this to noobies with trophy cans (empties). It's as though no one can acknowledge that a trophy can might help better motivate an individual in their quit. So instead of having a real dialogue, you run them off the site. Doesn't really jive with the whole "brotherhood" line being peddled.
3. I have numbers with other quitters, they know who they are. Have not met other quitters in person due to work and the fact that there are very few active NYC-based quitters. Also, used chat early on but haven't since due to work.
IMO, my viewpoint of KTC having cult-like aspects does not help nor hinder my quit. It is simply an observation. Now, I do think the site could improve as a whole if members stopped running newbies off for having trophy cans. You want to call someone out for being dishonorable? No problem with that- when it comes to caving. But a trophy can being dishonorable? REALLY?
But for me personally, the culty aspects really makes no difference. Again, just a simple observation. KTC serves its purposes, which is keeping me accountable in my quit.
Whatever. Just chug the koolaid and make this quit last forever. Quit being so righteous.
Big Tobacco is pure evil.
Funny you should mention "chugging the kool-aid" in a discussion on the cult side of KTC. LOL.
I meant it to be funny (or ironic). I went to college. Tobacco companies are targeting children. It's not a choice. It's a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government. It is pure evil and definitely not a choice.
"It is a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government."
So is alcohol. But there are those who can enjoy a beer every now and then, and there are those who are abusive alcoholics.
To suggest that we have no choice is truly playing the victim card. I made my choice to dip- and then I made my choice to quit.
To suggest that we have no choice also diminishes the efforts of all those people who have refused to use tobacco in any form, ever. They had a choice, and they made the right choice from the beginning.
Tobacco is the leading cause of preventable death in the world. Evil people are expanding their fortunes from killing you and your children. It is as addictive as heroin, meth, and crack.
I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression. Until you see it as an act of aggression designed to steal time and money from people then we are going to disagree. If you see it for what it is it will fall right in line with your political philosophy.
"I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression."
I truly do not. It is actually one of the more restrictive markets, these days at least.
In the debate over personal choice versus victims of aggressive marketing, what more evidence do you need when a product you're trying to sell is mandated to have a label on it which says quite clearly in black and white that THIS PRODUCT WILL KILL YOU.
Sounds like you've made your choice!
Do you have kids? Do you remember the kids dipping/smoking in school?
I'm 28 with a 6-month old boy.
Tobacco marketing and advertising has been the subject of very strict legislation in recent years. It's not the same playing field as it was decades ago. So let's not kid ourselves. Before I started my quit, I was well aware of the health issues, the carcinogens, and the BIG BLACK LABEL reminding me that I will die if I opened the tin.
Spare me the big bad wolf of aggressive tobacco marketing. Let's talk today, let's talk 2014. I see more anti-tobacco advertising than anything else!
In addition to the marketing aspect, there is legislation on the table here in NYC where tobacco products cannot even be visible in the store. It must be stored under the counter. You also have to be 21 (not 18) in NYC to buy tobacco.
Legislators, public health agencies, and non-profits are doing more than ever to combat tobacco use in all forms. I see zero aggressive marketing- just plenty of people choosing to ignore the warnings because they wanna get a nice buzz. It's a design flaw in humanity- to only see the short-term gains and ignore the long-term consequences.
It literally takes one or two cigarettes/dips to get a person hooked. Read the science of nicotine addiction. The first cigarettes or chews that a kid has are not from a pack he bought at the gas station. He either stole them from his parents or got them from a friend. The shit is designed (nicotine levels are regulated exactly in each dose by the multi-billion dollar manufacturer) to deliver a punch that will trigger addiction at a very high rate.
Do a little research into how these tobacco companies do business in other parts of the world where advertising regulations are unheard of, and where product warning labels are not required.
You can get this poison on any street corner and if you're addicted it takes 20 years off of your life. You need to understand that we ARE being assaulted by this industry with aggression. Big tobacco is killing millions every year for profit. That is not freedom my friend. How hard have you fought for your freedom these first few months? What if you didn't have KTC to keep you accountable? Most people are not successful quitting. It's because at the point of addiction it is no longer a personal choice. The addicts are enslaved by a product designed to enslave them, steal their money, and kill them early. The shit sells itself in middle school parking lots. No marketing is needed. It's cheap. It's a fix. It's a nasty addiction.
My choice is that I will remain free by any means necessary. A huge part of my quit and a lot of others that I know here is their hatred for big tobacco. I haven't gotten into the discussion of whether or not nicotine addiction is a personal choice before. So I do appreciate you sharing your viewpoint. But I wholeheartedly disagree. Tobacco companies are assaulting the world's population, plain and simple. For us here at KTC, due to it's wonderful resources, we are educated to make the choice to be free. We have to fight to be free. But for most people out there it is not a choice. Not a choice at all.
EDIT - the warning labels didn't cause me to make a choice in the least.
I know all about the science behind maximizing addictive chemicals to create lifetime buyers of tobacco.
I knew it before I started dipping. That still didn't stop me. Because I made (erroneous as it were) my OWN choice to try it anyways. I CHOSE to assume that, somehow, my own body chemistry was somehow different that the rest of humanity. No tobacco company sold me on that idea. Our own fallacies as human beings are responsible for that. And we can only chalk that up to personal choice.
It's good to see different perspectives. But for me, when it comes to dip, I don't blame anyone but myself for getting addicted. Big tobacco didn't force me to do it. I did it just because.
On the other hand, I still will continue to call out the cult-like aspects exhibited on KTC. I mentioned in another thread about someone who came here and spoke of a trophy tin. Needless to say, he left the site because of the holier than thou attitude he received as a result.
I see nothing wrong with a trophy tin. If that's what keeps you quit, then fine. By any means necessary. There was another guy talking about turning his collection of empty tins into a pool table or something. I say, go for it.
I must follow 50 instagram accounts of individuals celebrating dip life, posting videos of packing enormous lips. Don't know why I do it. But in some weird way, it has contributed to my quit.
I await the next "veteran" to come on here and play pseudo-psychologist, and tell me to get off the site because that type of behavior will lead to a crave and that is not tolerated here.
Let's not all try to play psychologist and assume we understand the inner-workings of the behavior patterns of someone who, in all likelihood, we never met before and will never meet.
You are not going to budge, I see.
From where I sit. You didn't know the level to which you would be addicted before you made your "choice" to try tobacco. There is no way you knew. Non nicotine addicts don't understand. Obviously you chose to try it. You didn't choose this addiction. Why on earth would anyone choose this addiction? People choose to quit all the time. But most fail because they can't overcome the addiction. To me addiction is not a choice, it is an undermined assault.
If you want to continue criticizing KTC for aspects that you perceive to be "cult-like" then feel free. It only makes you look like kind of like a passive-aggressive douche nozzle. I feel like you're afraid that you are abandoning your political philosophy if you admit that the mass of nicotine addicts in this country/world do not have a choice when it comes to this addiction. Tobacco is cultural and it's usage starts at an early age in many areas. At an age when educated choices are not made. Most people are not university professors such as yourself. Most people don't read. Most people live day to day.
Also, there is a huge difference between a trophy tin and an emergency can. The guy we conversed about earlier, on another thread, had an emergency can, and then lied about disposing it. Major bullshit, and I hope you see why I would have a problem with that. Nicotine addicts need wake up calls. If they choose to air their their thoughts on KTC, then they are subject to the responses they receive. I do prefer constructive criticism and good manners. But holding to the belief that distancing one's self from reminders of tobacco, especially early in the quit, does not constitute a cult mentality. We KILL the can here, we don't save cans for trophies or emergencies. We fucking KILL it. Hence the name.
I've enjoyed the discussion thus far.
Per the notion on tobacco being cultural: that is not necessarily the case. Dipping is not part of NYC culture AT ALL, and here I stand before you- someone born and raised in Brooklyn, who started dipping at 25, long after undergrad and grad school. That's more than enough years of schooling under my belt to know what's good for me and what's bad for me. And certainly no cultural pressures to speak of, being a city boy and all.
Per the notion of choice: what do you say to all those people who choose to never use a tobacco product? How were they able to escape the brainwashing of so-called "aggressive marketing" and "assault" by big tobacco?
If you think that big tobacco is not aggressively marketing their product then you are simply mistaken.
Sorry to butt into this 2 person conversation. FKS - 75 days. That's strong. I see you hitting the hall and bolting. Prove me wrong. Hope you stay quit, seriously.
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Sorry to butt into this 2 person conversation. FKS - 75 days. That's strong. I see you hitting the hall and bolting. Prove me wrong. Hope you stay quit, seriously.
And what have I done/said specifically to make you think that?
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If you think that big tobacco is not aggressively marketing their product then you are simply mistaken.
Name another (legal) product that has equal or more legislation designed to limit and/or expunge its marketing tactics and I will humbly cede this debate.
-
If you think that big tobacco is not aggressively marketing their product then you are simply mistaken.
Name another (legal) product that has equal or more legislation designed to limit and/or expunge its marketing tactics and I will humbly cede this debate.
No other product is comparable. No other product is so deadly yet so readily available and inexpensive. You're looking at it only on the surface. I implore you to look a little deeper.
As far as marketing tactics today: just look at the signage prevalent at convenience stores and gas stations. Maybe NYC is different. I haven't been there in a while.
As far as you denying tobacco being a cultural thing: read 80% of the guys' intro stories here and find out if their parents used tobacco, and ask what age they started using tobacco.
You're a university professor in NYC who chose tobacco addiction at age 25 from scratch (talk about an oxyMoron). I'm glad you're quit of course. And I will cede that you chose to poison yourself. Okay, it was your choice. You knew the long term health consequences. Did you really foresee the addiction part going into it though? If so, you are a rare bird. Regardless, it is my firmly held belief that in the vast majority of nicotine addiction cases there was no choice made such as yours. It is my contention that the majority of addicts started before the lawful age by being pressured by their peers or coerced through aggressive marketing tactics from the tobacco industry itself. Still going on..... CLICK THIS (https://www.google.com/search?q=tobacco+billboard+ads&client=safari&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=pW09VPqDHNiiyAS12YGwCQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=320&bih=460#hl=en&tbm=isch&q=tobacco+signs+in+convenience+store). They were never properly educated as to the addictive properties of tobacco, only the long term health consequences, and then only in some cases. And then again, when it comes to smokeless tobacco, there is a myth permeated throughout society that the risks are lower when compared to cigarettes. I hope you don't deny this. No one truly understands nicotine addiction until they've been there. Most tobacco users are are in the lower income strata of society and don't receive high quality guidance or education. Tobacco is a scourge on humanity, the product is lining the pockets of corporate executives, consultants, lobbyists, and politicians with no end in sight. READ THIS (http://classic.followthemoney.org//press/ReportView.phtml?r=493&ext=6). Denying the tobacco scourge is akin to denying other catastrophic atrocities in recent human history which I won't mention here for the purpose of remaining respectful and keeping the argument focused on tobacco. But I will assume that you know what I am alluding to, and the annoying tinfoil hat wearing fools who deny it.
For more education on this matter, and if you really don't think the tobacco industry is a big bad wolf so to speak, please watch this very eye opening video: youtube (http://youtu.be/DiyWK3fzTpA)
These evil fuckers must be stopped. Your young child is directly in their crosshairs. Your young child is profit to them.
Bottom line is this. Once you start it is extremely hard to quit. We are rare heroes here at KTC. In fact, most who come to quit at KTC end up failing. It's those who stick around and who "drink the koolaid" that achieve success. The average life expectancy of a tobacco user is 20 years lower than a non-tobacco user. The companies selling this product will payoff whoever it takes to keep it legal and readily available. Despite the fact that this product is the #1 cause of preventable death in the world. I'm a capitalist, but tobacco industry is pure evil. If there is a hell they will surely burn in it.
-
If you think that big tobacco is not aggressively marketing their product then you are simply mistaken.
Name another (legal) product that has equal or more legislation designed to limit and/or expunge its marketing tactics and I will humbly cede this debate.
No other product is comparable. No other product is so deadly yet so readily available and inexpensive. You're looking at it only on the surface. I implore you to look a little deeper.
As far as marketing tactics today: just look at the signage prevalent at convenience stores and gas stations. Maybe NYC is different. I haven't been there in a while.
As far as you denying tobacco being a cultural thing: read 80% of the guys' intro stories here and find out if their parents used tobacco, and ask what age they started using tobacco.
You're a university professor in NYC who chose tobacco addiction at age 25 from scratch (talk about an oxyMoron). I'm glad you're quit of course. And I will cede that you chose to poison yourself. Okay, it was your choice. You knew the long term health consequences. Did you really foresee the addiction part going into it though? If so, you are a rare bird. Regardless, it is my firmly held belief that in the vast majority of nicotine addiction cases there was no choice made such as yours. It is my contention that the majority of addicts started before the lawful age by being pressured by their peers or coerced through aggressive marketing tactics from the tobacco industry itself. Still going on..... CLICK THIS (https://www.google.com/search?q=tobacco+billboard+ads&client=safari&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=pW09VPqDHNiiyAS12YGwCQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=320&bih=460#hl=en&tbm=isch&q=tobacco+signs+in+convenience+store). They were never properly educated as to the addictive properties of tobacco, only the long term health consequences, and then only in some cases. And then again, when it comes to smokeless tobacco, there is a myth permeated throughout society that the risks are lower when compared to cigarettes. I hope you don't deny this. No one truly understands nicotine addiction until they've been there. Most tobacco users are are in the lower income strata of society and don't receive high quality guidance or education. Tobacco is a scourge on humanity, the product is lining the pockets of corporate executives, consultants, lobbyists, and politicians with no end in sight. READ THIS (http://classic.followthemoney.org//press/ReportView.phtml?r=493&ext=6). Denying the tobacco scourge is akin to denying other catastrophic atrocities in recent human history which I won't mention here for the purpose of remaining respectful and keeping the argument focused on tobacco. But I will assume that you know what I am alluding to, and the annoying tinfoil hat wearing fools who deny it.
For more education on this matter, and if you really don't think the tobacco industry is a big bad wolf so to speak, please watch this very eye opening video: youtube (http://youtu.be/DiyWK3fzTpA)
These evil fuckers must be stopped. Your young child is directly in their crosshairs. Your young child is profit to them.
Bottom line is this. Once you start it is extremely hard to quit. We are rare heroes here at KTC. In fact, most who come to quit at KTC end up failing. It's those who stick around and who "drink the koolaid" that achieve success. The average life expectancy of a tobacco user is 20 years lower than a non-tobacco user. The companies selling this product will payoff whoever it takes to keep it legal and readily available. Despite the fact that this product is the #1 cause of preventable death in the world. I'm a capitalist, but tobacco industry is pure evil. If there is a hell they will surely burn in it.
In terms of no product being comparable- what about alcohol? Arguably worse because dipping only kills the user, whereas alcohol has the potential to kill the user as well as anyone else who happens to be driving on the road at the same time.
You are right about tobacco being a cultural thing. I realize that I am the exception, not the rule.
But in terms of marketing, I would hardly consider gas station signage aggressive marketing.
And what about the people who actively choose to never use tobacco in any form? You keep avoiding that question. How have they managed to escape the brainwashing and so-called aggressive marketing of big tobacco?
My thing is this: blaming big tobacco for the situations WE put OURSELVES in is a victim mentality to which I refuse to subscribe- especially when so much legislation has been enacted to limit its impact. By not acknowledging personal choice, it is as if we are just washing our hands of the whole deal, Pontius Pilate style. Not with it.
*Edit: will watch the video when I get home!
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On the trophy tin............
hang a needle full of temptation from the neck of a junkie?
ask an alcoholic to keep some booze around?
It's like asking a Labrador to hold your steak. He may not eat it , but he's sure gonna drool a little bit, and would've been much happier had you not interrupted his chewing of the neighbors cat to dry hump him with a undercooked Filet Mignon.
The problem with quitting nicotine is that the opponent to our success is ourselves, and we are some crafty little reptilian brained scheming addicts. The trophy tin is a beautifully crafted two part "use rationalization" . The first part is allowing oneself to believe that, keeping the substance of addiction within arms reach, somehow helps gain power over ones addiction. This was scientifically proven to be donkey apples by a team of chimpanzees and a guy named Sven. This battle is with your mind, not a substance. Keeping that substance in minds eye and arms reach creates an opportunity for failure. Which leads us to the second part of this piece of seriously poor judgment. It was a subtle trick to create the opportunity for failure ( the trophy tin) and now will come the inevitable tipping point. Perhaps a death in the family? bad diagnosis? divorce? get fired? cable out? long drive? doesn't matter, your nicotine addled cerebellum will think of something, and in that sorrow or joy or anger you will find your excuse to crack both the covenant of your quit and the seal on that tin.
Anecdotally I and my long term fellow Cult of the Quilting Quit Monks of Zassafras5 will tell you that more often than not a "trophy can" will indeed precipitate a cave. Now you must excuse me, I need to find my purple robe before the spaceship gets here .
sM
-
If you think that big tobacco is not aggressively marketing their product then you are simply mistaken.
Name another (legal) product that has equal or more legislation designed to limit and/or expunge its marketing tactics and I will humbly cede this debate.
No other product is comparable. No other product is so deadly yet so readily available and inexpensive. You're looking at it only on the surface. I implore you to look a little deeper.
As far as marketing tactics today: just look at the signage prevalent at convenience stores and gas stations. Maybe NYC is different. I haven't been there in a while.
As far as you denying tobacco being a cultural thing: read 80% of the guys' intro stories here and find out if their parents used tobacco, and ask what age they started using tobacco.
You're a university professor in NYC who chose tobacco addiction at age 25 from scratch (talk about an oxyMoron). I'm glad you're quit of course. And I will cede that you chose to poison yourself. Okay, it was your choice. You knew the long term health consequences. Did you really foresee the addiction part going into it though? If so, you are a rare bird. Regardless, it is my firmly held belief that in the vast majority of nicotine addiction cases there was no choice made such as yours. It is my contention that the majority of addicts started before the lawful age by being pressured by their peers or coerced through aggressive marketing tactics from the tobacco industry itself. Still going on..... CLICK THIS (https://www.google.com/search?q=tobacco+billboard+ads&client=safari&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=pW09VPqDHNiiyAS12YGwCQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=320&bih=460#hl=en&tbm=isch&q=tobacco+signs+in+convenience+store). They were never properly educated as to the addictive properties of tobacco, only the long term health consequences, and then only in some cases. And then again, when it comes to smokeless tobacco, there is a myth permeated throughout society that the risks are lower when compared to cigarettes. I hope you don't deny this. No one truly understands nicotine addiction until they've been there. Most tobacco users are are in the lower income strata of society and don't receive high quality guidance or education. Tobacco is a scourge on humanity, the product is lining the pockets of corporate executives, consultants, lobbyists, and politicians with no end in sight. READ THIS (http://classic.followthemoney.org//press/ReportView.phtml?r=493&ext=6). Denying the tobacco scourge is akin to denying other catastrophic atrocities in recent human history which I won't mention here for the purpose of remaining respectful and keeping the argument focused on tobacco. But I will assume that you know what I am alluding to, and the annoying tinfoil hat wearing fools who deny it.
For more education on this matter, and if you really don't think the tobacco industry is a big bad wolf so to speak, please watch this very eye opening video: youtube (http://youtu.be/DiyWK3fzTpA)
These evil fuckers must be stopped. Your young child is directly in their crosshairs. Your young child is profit to them.
Bottom line is this. Once you start it is extremely hard to quit. We are rare heroes here at KTC. In fact, most who come to quit at KTC end up failing. It's those who stick around and who "drink the koolaid" that achieve success. The average life expectancy of a tobacco user is 20 years lower than a non-tobacco user. The companies selling this product will payoff whoever it takes to keep it legal and readily available. Despite the fact that this product is the #1 cause of preventable death in the world. I'm a capitalist, but tobacco industry is pure evil. If there is a hell they will surely burn in it.
In terms of no product being comparable- what about alcohol? Arguably worse because dipping only kills the user, whereas alcohol has the potential to kill the user as well as anyone else who happens to be driving on the road at the same time.
You are right about tobacco being a cultural thing. I realize that I am the exception, not the rule.
But in terms of marketing, I would hardly consider gas station signage aggressive marketing.
And what about the people who actively choose to never use tobacco in any form? You keep avoiding that question. How have they managed to escape the brainwashing and so-called aggressive marketing of big tobacco?
My thing is this: blaming big tobacco for the situations WE put OURSELVES in is a victim mentality to which I refuse to subscribe- especially when so much legislation has been enacted to limit its impact. By not acknowledging personal choice, it is as if we are just washing our hands of the whole deal, Pontius Pilate style. Not with it.
*Edit: will watch the video when I get home!
The legislation is largely pandering. There are scientific studies that are actually funded by the tobacco industry. It's smoke and mirrors. Signage and product placement on every corner store and gas station is aggressive in my view. Just as aggressive as the TV and Magazine advertisements of yore. Pop up ads on the internet are also unregulated. Sure billboards have been banned in the U.S. Sure, alcohol is a somewhat culpable industry. But the addictive properties of alcohol are the inverse of nicotine, literally. 10% of alcohol users are addicted, while 90% of nicotine users are addicted. It's the addiction that Kills by deteriorating the body, aside from the drunk driving aspect. I am not a victim. All of us who choose to educate ourselves on the consequences and addictive effects of nicotine can no longer claim to be a victim. We are awake now. We can never go back and claim to be a victim of the tobacco industry, because we have been educated by this no-nonsense place called KTC. That is why cavers/retreads are so reviled in this place. They chose to be victims after having been the gift of of this program handed to them for free on a silver platter. You are correct in that sense. Where I believe you are wrong is when it comes to the uneducated masses out there. Not just in the U.S. either. But if you focus on the U.S. and you look at major inner-cities and poor rural communities, tobacco use is everywhere. Underage use is rampant. The known edict of tobacco companies is to hook 'em young. The younger the better. Legislation and regulation are largely unenforceable. Advertising is prevalent on every street corner. Tobacco is for sale on every street corner. It is horribly addictive and kills it's users. Young people do not make informed choices, I'm sorry. I have an 11 yo, a 6 yo, and a 5 yo. If I smoked and chewed tobacco in front of them on a daily basis do they have a choice? Does an 11 year old have a choice? Are they educated or smart enough to have a choice? Sure they may get a few lessons in school regarding the negative health effects. Do they know the addiction properties before they first try it? It literally hooks people, especially young people, very early on. Literally in the first pack/can a user becomes hooked, at an extremely high rate. Much higher than alcohol. That's the whole problem. Because of the addictive properties it leaves people with no choice in the matter. People feel like they can't function/live without it, 90% of the users in fact. It is extremely addictive. Way more addictive than alcohol, it's not even comparable. Granted alcohol addiction is extremely devastating. I've lived/live with alcohols. It's terrible. But I have lived/live with 10 times as many nicotine addicts. It is a scourge. Look at those gas station signs. Really look at them. Think back to 100 days ago before you came here. You are free thanks to this place. Time to look upon your former master and see it for what it is. A slave doesn't choose bondage. A slave is either born into slavery, or tricked into it. Any choice they may think they had was a truly uninformed choice. The choice is a guise.
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On the trophy tin............
hang a needle full of temptation from the neck of a junkie?
ask an alcoholic to keep some booze around?
It's like asking a Labrador to hold your steak. He may not eat it , but he's sure gonna drool a little bit, and would've been much happier had you not interrupted his chewing of the neighbors cat to dry hump him with a undercooked Filet Mignon.
The problem with quitting nicotine is that the opponent to our success is ourselves, and we are some crafty little reptilian brained scheming addicts. The trophy tin is a beautifully crafted two part "use rationalization" . The first part is allowing oneself to believe that, keeping the substance of addiction within arms reach, somehow helps gain power over ones addiction. This was scientifically proven to be donkey apples by a team of chimpanzees and a guy named Sven. This battle is with your mind, not a substance. Keeping that substance in minds eye and arms reach creates an opportunity for failure. Which leads us to the second part of this piece of seriously poor judgment. It was a subtle trick to create the opportunity for failure ( the trophy tin) and now will come the inevitable tipping point. Perhaps a death in the family? bad diagnosis? divorce? get fired? cable out? long drive? doesn't matter, your nicotine addled cerebellum will think of something, and in that sorrow or joy or anger you will find your excuse to crack both the covenant of your quit and the seal on that tin.
Anecdotally I and my long term fellow Cult of the Quilting Quit Monks of Zassafras5 will tell you that more often than not a "trophy can" will indeed precipitate a cave. Now you must excuse me, I need to find my purple robe before the spaceship gets here .
sM
If someone is pre-disposed to caving, then what difference does it make if they have to go to their garage or walk up the block to buy the dip? A caver will find an excuse, no matter the circumstances.
Also, I was focused more on the EMPTY trophy tin which, to me, is no different than the HoF coin. It is a commemorative item for those who find strength in a tangible object which signified a turning point in his or her life.
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It's the addiction that Kills by deteriorating the body, aside from the drunk driving aspect.........A slave is either born into slavery, or tricked into it. Any choice they may think they had was a truly uninformed choice. The choice is a guise.
I like how you just casually slip in, "aside from the drunk driving aspect." lol
That's kind of a big issue to just lightly acknowledge. At least tobacco users have the presence of mind and general courtesy to kill themselves and not take out others in the process.
In terms of slaves being born into slavery or tricked into it- that may be your experience from your own upbringing and whatever cultural norms existed at the time. But just know that it's not the case with everybody. As such, we should not assume that everyone on here "pretty much" has the same dipping history. We should not carelessly throw out random unfounded statistics that "90% of the time" users of dip start out this way and go that way.
My story is different and we should all talk to newcomers with the same blank slate mentality and not run them off the site for discussion of a trophy tin, a comfort tin, saving a pyramid of empties, following dippers on twitter or instagram, etc. Everyone internalizes the quit in their own way. There is no one size fits all, except for posting roll. That is the true value of this site. Everything else is a set of so-called vets throwing their weight around, playing psychologist, and not even willing to entertain other people's modes of coping mechanisms- especially during the withdrawal process. Notice how so many posts from vets on a newbies intro is really just the generic response "drink water...smokey mountain... sun flower seeds... links to your group... get numbers" blah blah blah. It's the same information over and over with very little dialogue on THAT person's particular set of circumstances. Because anything beyond that might actually get them into a shit storm of criticism to the point where they leave the site. That, to me, runs counter to what this site should be about.
And I'll bring this up only one more time because you keep ducking the question, but if marketing by big tobacco is so aggressive, how do you explain those individuals who CHOOSE to never dip/smoke? How have they managed to escape the brainwashing and far-reaching tentacles of big bad tobacco? By simply ignoring these people - and ignoring the fact that tobacco use continues to decline in this country - we diminish their own accomplishments of making GOOD PERSONAL CHOICES and using SOUND JUDGMENT. Something we, as addicts, did not do.
We need to be held accountable for own actions instead of blaming some sign in a gas station which, by the way, has a disclaimer on it on big bold letters that says Continued use of this product will fucking kill you one day!
-
On the trophy tin............
hang a needle full of temptation from the neck of a junkie?
ask an alcoholic to keep some booze around?
It's like asking a Labrador to hold your steak. He may not eat it , but he's sure gonna drool a little bit, and would've been much happier had you not interrupted his chewing of the neighbors cat to dry hump him with a undercooked Filet Mignon.
The problem with quitting nicotine is that the opponent to our success is ourselves, and we are some crafty little reptilian brained scheming addicts. The trophy tin is a beautifully crafted two part "use rationalization" . The first part is allowing oneself to believe that, keeping the substance of addiction within arms reach, somehow helps gain power over ones addiction. This was scientifically proven to be donkey apples by a team of chimpanzees and a guy named Sven. This battle is with your mind, not a substance. Keeping that substance in minds eye and arms reach creates an opportunity for failure. Which leads us to the second part of this piece of seriously poor judgment. It was a subtle trick to create the opportunity for failure ( the trophy tin) and now will come the inevitable tipping point. Perhaps a death in the family? bad diagnosis? divorce? get fired? cable out? long drive? doesn't matter, your nicotine addled cerebellum will think of something, and in that sorrow or joy or anger you will find your excuse to crack both the covenant of your quit and the seal on that tin.
Anecdotally I and my long term fellow Cult of the Quilting Quit Monks of Zassafras5 will tell you that more often than not a "trophy can" will indeed precipitate a cave. Now you must excuse me, I need to find my purple robe before the spaceship gets here .
sM
If someone is pre-disposed to caving, then what difference does it make if they have to go to their garage or walk up the block to buy the dip? A caver will find an excuse, no matter the circumstances.
Also, I was focused more on the EMPTY trophy tin which, to me, is no different than the HoF coin. It is a commemorative item for those who find strength in a tangible object which signified a turning point in his or her life.
I hear what your saying, However, all addicts are predisposed to caving especially in the beginning. Putting as much space between you and your substance of addiction is wise policy in general.
But an empty tin is not a "trophy can" , its just a piece of plastic. decorate your house with em if you want. Trophy can is a full Tin
12 year olds don't choose to be addicts, I started when US Tobacco sent me a free Tin in the mail. Got em all the time. Apple leaf was a favorite of mine. Tasted a lot like candy.
Earl Cambell used to be on TV telling me that shit was good mojo for athletes, I think I remember Walter Peyton as well.
Many of us here were hooked long before the surgeon general came out and declared that this shit causes cancer, hell cans didn't even have warnings on em back then.
They said it was safe.........................
liars.
-
It's the addiction that Kills by deteriorating the body, aside from the drunk driving aspect.........A slave is either born into slavery, or tricked into it. Any choice they may think they had was a truly uninformed choice. The choice is a guise.
I like how you just casually slip in, "aside from the drunk driving aspect." lol
That's kind of a big issue to just lightly acknowledge. At least tobacco users have the presence of mind and general courtesy to kill themselves and not take out others in the process.
In terms of slaves being born into slavery or tricked into it- that may be your experience from your own upbringing and whatever cultural norms existed at the time. But just know that it's not the case with everybody. As such, we should not assume that everyone on here "pretty much" has the same dipping history. We should not carelessly throw out random unfounded statistics that "90% of the time" users of dip start out this way and go that way.
My story is different and we should all talk to newcomers with the same blank slate mentality and not run them off the site for discussion of a trophy tin, a comfort tin, saving a pyramid of empties, following dippers on twitter or instagram, etc. Everyone internalizes the quit in their own way. There is no one size fits all, except for posting roll. That is the true value of this site. Everything else is a set of so-called vets throwing their weight around, playing psychologist, and not even willing to entertain other people's modes of coping mechanisms- especially during the withdrawal process. Notice how so many posts from vets on a newbies intro is really just the generic response "drink water...smokey mountain... sun flower seeds... links to your group... get numbers" blah blah blah. It's the same information over and over with very little dialogue on THAT person's particular set of circumstances. Because anything beyond that might actually get them into a shit storm of criticism to the point where they leave the site. That, to me, runs counter to what this site should be about.
And I'll bring this up only one more time because you keep ducking the question, but if marketing by big tobacco is so aggressive, and people really have no choice and choice is an illusion blah blah blah--- how do you explain those individuals who CHOOSE to never dip/smoke? How have they managed to escape the brainwashing and far-reaching tentacles of big bad tobacco? By simply ignoring these people - and ignoring the fact that tobacco use continues to decline in this country - we diminish their own accomplishments of making GOOD PERSONAL CHOICES and using SOUND JUDGMENT. Something we, as addicts, did not do.
We need to be held accountable for own actions instead of blaming some sign in a gas station which, by the way, has a disclaimer on it on big bold letters that says Continued use of this product will fucking kill you one day!
-
On the trophy tin............
hang a needle full of temptation from the neck of a junkie?
ask an alcoholic to keep some booze around?
It's like asking a Labrador to hold your steak. He may not eat it , but he's sure gonna drool a little bit, and would've been much happier had you not interrupted his chewing of the neighbors cat to dry hump him with a undercooked Filet Mignon.
The problem with quitting nicotine is that the opponent to our success is ourselves, and we are some crafty little reptilian brained scheming addicts. The trophy tin is a beautifully crafted two part "use rationalization" . The first part is allowing oneself to believe that, keeping the substance of addiction within arms reach, somehow helps gain power over ones addiction. This was scientifically proven to be donkey apples by a team of chimpanzees and a guy named Sven. This battle is with your mind, not a substance. Keeping that substance in minds eye and arms reach creates an opportunity for failure. Which leads us to the second part of this piece of seriously poor judgment. It was a subtle trick to create the opportunity for failure ( the trophy tin) and now will come the inevitable tipping point. Perhaps a death in the family? bad diagnosis? divorce? get fired? cable out? long drive? doesn't matter, your nicotine addled cerebellum will think of something, and in that sorrow or joy or anger you will find your excuse to crack both the covenant of your quit and the seal on that tin.
Anecdotally I and my long term fellow Cult of the Quilting Quit Monks of Zassafras5 will tell you that more often than not a "trophy can" will indeed precipitate a cave. Now you must excuse me, I need to find my purple robe before the spaceship gets here .
sM
If someone is pre-disposed to caving, then what difference does it make if they have to go to their garage or walk up the block to buy the dip? A caver will find an excuse, no matter the circumstances.
Also, I was focused more on the EMPTY trophy tin which, to me, is no different than the HoF coin. It is a commemorative item for those who find strength in a tangible object which signified a turning point in his or her life.
I hear what your saying, However, all addicts are predisposed to caving especially in the beginning. Putting as much space between you and your substance of addiction is wise policy in general.
But an empty tin is not a "trophy can" , its just a piece of plastic. decorate your house with em if you want. Trophy can is a full Tin
12 year olds don't choose to be addicts, I started when US Tobacco sent me a free Tin in the mail. Got em all the time. Apple leaf was a favorite of mine. Tasted a lot like candy.
Earl Cambell used to be on TV telling me that shit was good mojo for athletes, I think I remember Walter Peyton as well.
Many of us here were hooked long before the surgeon general came out and declared that this shit causes cancer, hell cans didn't even have warnings on em back then.
They said it was safe.........................
liars.
I'm curious--
when it became pretty much established that tobacco-use causes cancer, did you quit immediately?
-
On the trophy tin............
hang a needle full of temptation from the neck of a junkie?
ask an alcoholic to keep some booze around?
It's like asking a Labrador to hold your steak. He may not eat it , but he's sure gonna drool a little bit, and would've been much happier had you not interrupted his chewing of the neighbors cat to dry hump him with a undercooked Filet Mignon.
The problem with quitting nicotine is that the opponent to our success is ourselves, and we are some crafty little reptilian brained scheming addicts. The trophy tin is a beautifully crafted two part "use rationalization" . The first part is allowing oneself to believe that, keeping the substance of addiction within arms reach, somehow helps gain power over ones addiction. This was scientifically proven to be donkey apples by a team of chimpanzees and a guy named Sven. This battle is with your mind, not a substance. Keeping that substance in minds eye and arms reach creates an opportunity for failure. Which leads us to the second part of this piece of seriously poor judgment. It was a subtle trick to create the opportunity for failure ( the trophy tin) and now will come the inevitable tipping point. Perhaps a death in the family? bad diagnosis? divorce? get fired? cable out? long drive? doesn't matter, your nicotine addled cerebellum will think of something, and in that sorrow or joy or anger you will find your excuse to crack both the covenant of your quit and the seal on that tin.
Anecdotally I and my long term fellow Cult of the Quilting Quit Monks of Zassafras5 will tell you that more often than not a "trophy can" will indeed precipitate a cave. Now you must excuse me, I need to find my purple robe before the spaceship gets here .
sM
If someone is pre-disposed to caving, then what difference does it make if they have to go to their garage or walk up the block to buy the dip? A caver will find an excuse, no matter the circumstances.
Also, I was focused more on the EMPTY trophy tin which, to me, is no different than the HoF coin. It is a commemorative item for those who find strength in a tangible object which signified a turning point in his or her life.
I hear what your saying, However, all addicts are predisposed to caving especially in the beginning. Putting as much space between you and your substance of addiction is wise policy in general.
But an empty tin is not a "trophy can" , its just a piece of plastic. decorate your house with em if you want. Trophy can is a full Tin
12 year olds don't choose to be addicts, I started when US Tobacco sent me a free Tin in the mail. Got em all the time. Apple leaf was a favorite of mine. Tasted a lot like candy.
Earl Cambell used to be on TV telling me that shit was good mojo for athletes, I think I remember Walter Peyton as well.
Many of us here were hooked long before the surgeon general came out and declared that this shit causes cancer, hell cans didn't even have warnings on em back then.
They said it was safe.........................
liars.
I'm curious--
when it became pretty much established that tobacco-use causes cancer, did you quit immediately?
I chewed on the way home from my first biopsy, I was too far down the rabbit hole to care and I didn't know how to stop, but yes I tried. I think you underestimate the power of an addictive mind. Just my opinion
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I think you underestimate the power of an addictive mind.
I don't underestimate addiction, I've been there.
But some people on this site overestimate tobacco marketing these days. As a result of blaming it on The Man, they cede their own accountability and personal choice. Sad.
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I think you underestimate the power of an addictive mind.
I don't underestimate addiction, I've been there.
But some people on this site overestimate tobacco marketing these days. As a result of blaming it on The Man, they cede their own accountability and personal choice. Sad.
I wholly confess that I myself caused my addiction. I also admit that my previous stoppages were caused by none other than me. I was an arrogant bastard that didn't realize that my choices were limiting my life and my ability to see the impacts I was having on others.
I underestimated the power of addiction only because I at the time did not believe I was an addict.
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I think you underestimate the power of an addictive mind.
I don't underestimate addiction, I've been there.
But some people on this site overestimate tobacco marketing these days. As a result of blaming it on The Man, they cede their own accountability and personal choice. Sad.
I wholly confess that I myself caused my addiction. I also admit that my previous stoppages were caused by none other than me. I was an arrogant bastard that didn't realize that my choices were limiting my life and my ability to see the impacts I was having on others.
I underestimated the power of addiction only because I at the time did not believe I was an addict.
true nuff
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I think you underestimate the power of an addictive mind.
I don't underestimate addiction, I've been there.
But some people on this site overestimate tobacco marketing these days. As a result of blaming it on The Man, they cede their own accountability and personal choice. Sad.
I wholly confess that I myself caused my addiction. I also admit that my previous stoppages were caused by none other than me. I was an arrogant bastard that didn't realize that my choices were limiting my life and my ability to see the impacts I was having on others.
I underestimated the power of addiction only because I at the time did not believe I was an addict.
true nuff
From google: Cigarette and smokeless tobacco companies spend billions of dollars each year to market their products. In 2011 (latest data available), cigarette companies spent $8.37 billion on advertising and promotional expenses in the United States alone, up from $8.05 billion in 2010.
Big tobacco is not "the man". Big tobacco is an industry that reaps huge profits from selling an addictive and deadly substance. They spend a shitload in advertising. If you are making money on stock holdings I won't harbor a grudge against you. I just think when someone is addicted, in the majority of cases with tobacco, the matter of choice doesn't even seem like a reasonable possibility. Luckily we have this cult-like place here to educate us and teach us that we can make a choice. People are tricked into slavery every day.
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I think you underestimate the power of an addictive mind.
I don't underestimate addiction, I've been there.
But some people on this site overestimate tobacco marketing these days. As a result of blaming it on The Man, they cede their own accountability and personal choice. Sad.
I wholly confess that I myself caused my addiction. I also admit that my previous stoppages were caused by none other than me. I was an arrogant bastard that didn't realize that my choices were limiting my life and my ability to see the impacts I was having on others.
I underestimated the power of addiction only because I at the time did not believe I was an addict.
true nuff
From google: Cigarette and smokeless tobacco companies spend billions of dollars each year to market their products. In 2011 (latest data available), cigarette companies spent $8.37 billion on advertising and promotional expenses in the United States alone, up from $8.05 billion in 2010.
Big tobacco is not "the man". Big tobacco is an industry that reaps huge profits from selling an addictive and deadly substance. They spend a shitload in advertising. If you are making money on stock holdings I won't harbor a grudge against you. I just think when someone is addicted, in the majority of cases with tobacco, the matter of choice doesn't even seem like a reasonable possibility. Luckily we have this cult-like place here to educate us and teach us that we can make a choice. People are tricked into slavery every day.
I'll have a cult like slice of comfort please.
Thank you KTC brothers.
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In 1994 all the big tobacco executives testified in front of congress that nicotine wasn't addictive....
Then fast forward to today, they are saying e-cigarettes are highly addictive and want you come back to tobacco:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/29/busin ... ience_r=1 (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/29/business/dire-warnings-by-big-tobacco-on-e-smoking-.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&smid=tw-nytimesscience&_r=1)
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In 2011 (latest data available), cigarette companies spent $8.37 billion on advertising and promotional expenses in the United States alone, up from $8.05 billion in 2010.
....I just think when someone is addicted, in the majority of cases with tobacco, the matter of choice doesn't even seem like a reasonable possibility.
First, I went to the CDC website where you pulled your numbers. I actually find that $8.3 billion figure to be relatively low, when you consider the fact that this accounts for the sum total of ALL cigarette companies. To put things into perspective, ProcterGamble (one company) spends $5 billion a year in advertising. I really dislike presenting numbers without context or reference.
Additionally, the sum total of ALL smokeless tobacco manufacturers (separate from cigarette companies) spent merely $450 million in advertising.
This is the source from which you're manipulating the data. (http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/tobacco_industry/marketing/index.htm?utm_source=feedb)
And how can you say that the matter of choice is not a "reasonable possibility" when we are all here as quitters. We chose to dip- and we chose to quit.
If you want to keep harping on the notion that allegedly aggressive marketing is responsible for our addictions and broken dreams, I implore you to at least familiarze yourself with recent studies showing sharp declines in smokeless tobacco use for every demographic across the board. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1470594/)
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In 2011 (latest data available), cigarette companies spent $8.37 billion on advertising and promotional expenses in the United States alone, up from $8.05 billion in 2010.
....I just think when someone is addicted, in the majority of cases with tobacco, the matter of choice doesn't even seem like a reasonable possibility.
First, I went to the CDC website where you pulled your numbers. I actually find that $8.3 billion figure to be relatively low, when you consider the fact that this accounts for the sum total of ALL cigarette companies. To put things into perspective, ProcterGamble (one company) spends $5 billion a year in advertising. I really dislike presenting numbers without context or reference.
Additionally, the sum total of ALL smokeless tobacco manufacturers (separate from cigarette companies) spent merely $450 million in advertising.
This is the source from which you're manipulating the data. (http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/tobacco_industry/marketing/index.htm?utm_source=feedb)
And how can you say that the matter of choice is not a "reasonable possibility" when we are all here as quitters. We chose to dip- and we chose to quit.
If you want to keep harping on the notion that allegedly aggressive marketing is responsible for our addictions and broken dreams, I implore you to at least familiarze yourself with recent studies showing sharp declines in smokeless tobacco use for every demographic across the board. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1470594/)
I'll quit harping on it. Whatever makes you feel better. Like I said, I pulled it straight off of a Google search. I didn't manipulate anything. The tobacco companies are ruthless in my view. In your view, I guess they're just guys trying to make an honest buck. All's fair in business whether it kills people or not. Whatever. Cling to your principle.
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In 2011 (latest data available), cigarette companies spent $8.37 billion on advertising and promotional expenses in the United States alone, up from $8.05 billion in 2010.
....I just think when someone is addicted, in the majority of cases with tobacco, the matter of choice doesn't even seem like a reasonable possibility.
First, I went to the CDC website where you pulled your numbers. I actually find that $8.3 billion figure to be relatively low, when you consider the fact that this accounts for the sum total of ALL cigarette companies. To put things into perspective, ProcterGamble (one company) spends $5 billion a year in advertising. I really dislike presenting numbers without context or reference.
Additionally, the sum total of ALL smokeless tobacco manufacturers (separate from cigarette companies) spent merely $450 million in advertising.
This is the source from which you're manipulating the data. (http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/tobacco_industry/marketing/index.htm?utm_source=feedb)
And how can you say that the matter of choice is not a "reasonable possibility" when we are all here as quitters. We chose to dip- and we chose to quit.
If you want to keep harping on the notion that allegedly aggressive marketing is responsible for our addictions and broken dreams, I implore you to at least familiarze yourself with recent studies showing sharp declines in smokeless tobacco use for every demographic across the board. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1470594/)
I'll quit harping on it. Whatever makes you feel better. Like I said, I pulled it straight off of a Google search. I didn't manipulate anything. The tobacco companies are ruthless in my view. In your view, I guess they're just guys trying to make an honest buck. All's fair in business whether it kills people or not. Whatever. Cling to your principle.
Pulling something "straight off a Google search" really doesn't mean anything if the data you present actually dilutes your own argument. Because the fact remains that smokeless tobacco use is on the decline, despite your perception of aggressive marketing.
That is what I mean by cult mentality. I'm all for advocating quit but I refuse to cede my own personal failures and instead blame them on a sign at a gas station. Especially when all available facts point in the opposite direction: how can you reconcile "aggressive" tobacco marketing with sharp declines in tobacco usage? There are only two answers to this question:
A) Someone in their marketing departments is doing a really shitty job
or
B) The marketing is really not as aggressive as you would imagine
I'll drink the kool-aid when it comes to posting roll and supporting new members (not running them off the site). Other than that, I'm good!
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Is it over?
Alright, back to quitting. Rock on Fk.
Side note: hell of a discussion in here. You both have slightly different views and don't have to agree on any...except to be quit.
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Spread love, it's the Brooklyn way! Grizzly, I do enjoy the discussion. Respect.
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Interesting debate fella's but I would have to side with Grizz on this topic as well. FK, there is a flaw in your theory of personal responsibility in regards to tobacco use in my humble opinion and I am a big proponent of personal choices and responsibility for your actions when it comes to adults. Especially adults that have been provided the wisdom of education, experience and life. But at 12 -13 years old when I was first given "Hawken" chewing tobacco from a baseball coach I don't think I was making well informed and proper life choices. This started my 27 year addiction to nicotine. My parents being smokers didn't help either since it was easy to swipe a cig when a craving hit. On a side note, "Hawken" has a nice sweet taste that kids really enjoy. I'm sure that was just by luck that they made it taste that way. This is the crux of Grizz's contention I think and it is that tobacco companies have used deceit and deception to market and hook people to a substance that is known to cause at minimum, serious health consequence and it kills more people every year then anything else. Its the hidden addictive quality that makes tobacco an outlier in my opinion when compared to alcohol or sugar or whatever other item you would like to compare. I get that using things in moderation generally is permissible to having a healthy life for the most part but for a huge segment of the population of people who use nicotine it becomes destructive. I'll also put my 2 cents in about your question on the declining tobacco use in this country. Well, that would be because we (USA) have started to educate and inform people and kids at a younger age about the harmful effects of the shit which has helped to cut into those numbers. My question is, why does a company get the right to make a substance that literally kills more people on the planet then anything else and has no useful or viable use to society or people? It literally has no useful purpose at all except to line the pockets of makers.
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Interesting debate fella's but I would have to side with Grizz on this topic as well. FK, there is a flaw in your theory of personal responsibility in regards to tobacco use in my humble opinion and I am a big proponent of personal choices and responsibility for your actions when it comes to adults. Especially adults that have been provided the wisdom of education, experience and life. But at 12 -13 years old when I was first given "Hawken" chewing tobacco from a baseball coach I don't think I was making well informed and proper life choices. This started my 27 year addiction to nicotine. My parents being smokers didn't help either since it was easy to swipe a cig when a craving hit. On a side note, "Hawken" has a nice sweet taste that kids really enjoy. I'm sure that was just by luck that they made it taste that way. This is the crux of Grizz's contention I think and it is that tobacco companies have used deceit and deception to market and hook people to a substance that is known to cause at minimum, serious health consequence and it kills more people every year then anything else. Its the hidden addictive quality that makes tobacco an outlier in my opinion when compared to alcohol or sugar or whatever other item you would like to compare. I get that using things in moderation generally is permissible to having a healthy life for the most part but for a huge segment of the population of people who use nicotine it becomes destructive. I'll also put my 2 cents in about your question on the declining tobacco use in this country. Well, that would be because we (USA) have started to educate and inform people and kids at a younger age about the harmful effects of the shit which has helped to cut into those numbers. My question is, why does a company get the right to make a substance that literally kills more people on the planet then anything else and has no useful or viable use to society or people? It literally has no useful purpose at all except to line the pockets of makers.
That is a great point. You were a child when given Hawken by your baseball coach, so obviously you could not make an informed decision.
I guess I should modify my stance by talking about those who begin dipping as adults, like me. I started at 25- basically on a whim, out of boredom, looking to just "try something" with no past experience in smoking or alcohol abuse. I stuck strictly to pouches so I could hide it easily.
My definition of adult would probably be seniors in high school to college age. A person at this age is generally aware that tobacco is a no-no. So if a man takes his first dip when he's on his college's baseball team, I don't blame peer pressure, I don't blame big tobacco marketing (although these are certainly factor's in the decision-making process). Ultimately, blame must fall on the dumb ass college student who - against all better judgment and evidence to the contrary - thought he could escape the hooks.
The same philosophy applies to me. As an adult dipper with no cultural reinforcements (clearly this is an exaggeration, but it truly feels like NO ONE dips in NYC. I can't understand how gas stations are not taking a loss by carrying dip), I really cannot blame anyone but myself for my poor judgment.
As far as a company's right to make a substance that is so harmful, I still think it's fair game. We start to slide down a slippery slope when we go down that road, banning substances and whatnot. Because there are plenty of people who can use tobacco products socially or just one in a while, and not get hooked. They should not be prohibited from being able to enjoy a buzz every once in a while just because we've become addicts. That is OUR problem to deal with.
And just to play devil's advocate (because I do agree with you that it has no useful purpose at all)- Stephen King has attributed all of his best writing to nicotine. It's actually very fascinating if you read some of his interviews. He says that smoking got his brain firing in more creative ways where he could just bang out page after page no problem.
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Interesting debate fella's but I would have to side with Grizz on this topic as well. FK, there is a flaw in your theory of personal responsibility in regards to tobacco use in my humble opinion and I am a big proponent of personal choices and responsibility for your actions when it comes to adults. Especially adults that have been provided the wisdom of education, experience and life. But at 12 -13 years old when I was first given "Hawken" chewing tobacco from a baseball coach I don't think I was making well informed and proper life choices. This started my 27 year addiction to nicotine. My parents being smokers didn't help either since it was easy to swipe a cig when a craving hit. On a side note, "Hawken" has a nice sweet taste that kids really enjoy. I'm sure that was just by luck that they made it taste that way. This is the crux of Grizz's contention I think and it is that tobacco companies have used deceit and deception to market and hook people to a substance that is known to cause at minimum, serious health consequence and it kills more people every year then anything else. Its the hidden addictive quality that makes tobacco an outlier in my opinion when compared to alcohol or sugar or whatever other item you would like to compare. I get that using things in moderation generally is permissible to having a healthy life for the most part but for a huge segment of the population of people who use nicotine it becomes destructive. I'll also put my 2 cents in about your question on the declining tobacco use in this country. Well, that would be because we (USA) have started to educate and inform people and kids at a younger age about the harmful effects of the shit which has helped to cut into those numbers. My question is, why does a company get the right to make a substance that literally kills more people on the planet then anything else and has no useful or viable use to society or people? It literally has no useful purpose at all except to line the pockets of makers.
That is a great point. You were a child when given Hawken by your baseball coach, so obviously you could not make an informed decision.
I guess I should modify my stance by talking about those who begin dipping as adults, like me. I started at 25- basically on a whim, out of boredom, looking to just "try something" with no past experience in smoking or alcohol abuse. I stuck strictly to pouches so I could hide it easily.
My definition of adult would probably be seniors in high school to college age. A person at this age is generally aware that tobacco is a no-no. So if a man takes his first dip when he's on his college's baseball team, I don't blame peer pressure, I don't blame big tobacco marketing (although these are certainly factor's in the decision-making process). Ultimately, blame must fall on the dumb ass college student who - against all better judgment and evidence to the contrary - thought he could escape the hooks.
The same philosophy applies to me. As an adult dipper with no cultural reinforcements (clearly this is an exaggeration, but it truly feels like NO ONE dips in NYC. I can't understand how gas stations are not taking a loss by carrying dip), I really cannot blame anyone but myself for my poor judgment.
As far as a company's right to make a substance that is so harmful, I still think it's fair game. We start to slide down a slippery slope when we go down that road, banning substances and whatnot. Because there are plenty of people who can use tobacco products socially or just one in a while, and not get hooked. They should not be prohibited from being able to enjoy a buzz every once in a while just because we've become addicts. That is OUR problem to deal with.
And just to play devil's advocate (because I do agree with you that it has no useful purpose at all)- Stephen King has attributed all of his best writing to nicotine. It's actually very fascinating if you read some of his interviews. He says that smoking got his brain firing in more creative ways where he could just bang out page after page no problem.
Good for Stephen King.
Tony Gwynn dipped to help him concentrate on baseball...he's fucking dead.
My Grandpa smoke camel non filters because it helped him pass the time at work and I swear he smoked even more because he got "camel bucks" and thought it was cool to have camel gear...he fucking died at age 72
My Uncle Bill smoked because he had a lot of stress working in a post office... dead at age 58. My cousin and Aunt are still messed up because of it.
My wife's Grandma smoke and spent the last 12 years of her life on oxygen never leaving the house. She missed our wedding, the birth of both our kids, countless family celebrations, and died in her 70's while my wife's Grandpa had to take care of her night and day, thus ruining his entie life after he finally retire from GM after working there for 40 years.
That stuff hits too close to home for me. I'm done.
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Stephen King sounds like an addict.
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Tony Gwynn dipped to help him concentrate on baseball...he's fucking dead.
I'm truly sorry for the losses in your family.
I don't want to come across as a complete dick, but I should note that there is no established link between dip and the type of cancer that Tony Gwynn had (parotid gland).
Disclaimer: that's not to say that dip doesn't cause cancer (no shit, it does). So let's clear the air on that point before people start changing my words around.
I'm simply saying that, in Tony Gwynn's case, the conventional thinking put out in the media was that dip had caused his cancer. Even though there is no real medical evidence to connect dip with cancer of the parotid gland. His case might unfortunately be one of bad genetics.
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Tony Gwynn dipped to help him concentrate on baseball...he's fucking dead.
I'm truly sorry for the losses in your family.
I don't want to come across as a complete dick, but I should note that there is no established link between dip and the type of cancer that Tony Gwynn had (parotid gland).
Disclaimer: that's not to say that dip doesn't cause cancer (no shit, it does). So let's clear the air on that point before people start changing my words around.
I'm simply saying that, in Tony Gwynn's case, the conventional thinking put out in the media was that dip had caused his cancer. Even though there is no real medical evidence to connect dip with cancer of the parotid gland. His case might unfortunately be one of bad genetics.
There simply hasn't been any studies done to show the link between smokeless tobacco use and parotid cancer. Big tobacco actually funds a research group who publicized the lack of a link between the two right after Gwynn's death. They did this as an attempt to reassure their loyal customers that they wouldn't end up like Gwynn. Not a direct marketing ploy certainly, but kind of a hybrid PR/gorilla marketing technique I'd say. I feel that I can personally guarantee to you that smokeless tobacco and parotid gland tumors are indeed linked. Granted, I don't have an actual scientific study to show you. But I do have a personal experience that I could tell you about. I know Tony Gwynn's story very well and can relate to the early stages of his ailment.
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Tony Gwynn dipped to help him concentrate on baseball...he's fucking dead.
I'm truly sorry for the losses in your family.
I don't want to come across as a complete dick, but I should note that there is no established link between dip and the type of cancer that Tony Gwynn had (parotid gland).
Disclaimer: that's not to say that dip doesn't cause cancer (no shit, it does). So let's clear the air on that point before people start changing my words around.
I'm simply saying that, in Tony Gwynn's case, the conventional thinking put out in the media was that dip had caused his cancer. Even though there is no real medical evidence to connect dip with cancer of the parotid gland. His case might unfortunately be one of bad genetics.
There simply hasn't been any studies done to show the link between smokeless tobacco use and parotid cancer. Big tobacco actually funds a research group who publicized the lack of a link between the two right after Gwynn's death. They did this as an attempt to reassure their loyal customers that they wouldn't end up like Gwynn. Not a direct marketing ploy certainly, but kind of a hybrid PR/gorilla marketing technique I'd say. I feel that I can personally guarantee to you that smokeless tobacco and parotid gland tumors are indeed linked. Granted, I don't have an actual scientific study to show you. But I do have a personal experience that I could tell you about. I know Tony Gwynn's story very well and can relate to the early stages of his ailment.
Check who the American Council on Science and Health gets their funding from. They are an organization that advocates for various industry products, not consumers. They are the ones who stated that Tony Gwynn's cancer was not caused by tobacco. How could they say that? They only said that because their hasn't been a scientific study showing the link. That doesn't mean it's not the case. Do a little research on ACSH grant money and then think about the number of things you could say do not have a link simply because a scientific study has never been performed. I'm confident that one of my juicy boogers will stick a wall for three years, but you could tell me that that is not true if there was never a scientific study performed. People believe what they want to believe.
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Tony Gwynn dipped to help him concentrate on baseball...he's fucking dead.
I'm truly sorry for the losses in your family.
I don't want to come across as a complete dick, but I should note that there is no established link between dip and the type of cancer that Tony Gwynn had (parotid gland).
Disclaimer: that's not to say that dip doesn't cause cancer (no shit, it does). So let's clear the air on that point before people start changing my words around.
I'm simply saying that, in Tony Gwynn's case, the conventional thinking put out in the media was that dip had caused his cancer. Even though there is no real medical evidence to connect dip with cancer of the parotid gland. His case might unfortunately be one of bad genetics.
There may be no proof but do you think Gwynn would recommend it to anyone? You think he took any comfort in your point? Doesn't sound like it to me. Way to indeed be a total dick by the way and totally miss my overall point. You can't help it though. I'm not trying to psyco analyze you or anything, but you are the guy who has to constantly try and prove you're the smartest guy in the room.
Here's what GWYNN had to say on the matter and not the MEDIA.
Gwynn asked whether smokeless tobacco caused all of this. The head radiation oncologist at Scripps Clinic, Dr. Prabhakar Tripuraneni (whom the Gwynns call Dr. T.) said he couldn't definitively say dipping initiated the tumor. He says it's his opinion that the cancer was unrelated, but acknowledged there hadn't been sufficient studies done to prove it one way or another. Gwynn's reaction was, "Of course it caused it," and Alicia nodded.
"If Tony believes that, who am I to argue with him?" Tripuraneni says.
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you are the guy who has to constantly try and prove you're the smartest guy in the room.
Here's what GWYNN had to say on the matter and not the MEDIA.
Gwynn asked whether smokeless tobacco caused all of this. The head radiation oncologist at Scripps Clinic, Dr. Prabhakar Tripuraneni (whom the Gwynns call Dr. T.) said he couldn't definitively say dipping initiated the tumor. He says it's his opinion that the cancer was unrelated, but acknowledged there hadn't been sufficient studies done to prove it one way or another. Gwynn's reaction was, "Of course it caused it," and Alicia nodded.
"If Tony believes that, who am I to argue with him?" Tripuraneni says.
Not trying to prove anything, just enjoy a good discussion. I'm sorry that you can't see it for what it is. Believe me, I don't need affirmation or any pats on the back from anyone on the internet about being "the smartest guy in the room."
It's great that Tony is trying to show how harmful dipping can be by linking it to his form of cancer. But it is simply not logical to arrive at conclusions without any evidence. Sure, maybe his heart tells him it was caused by the dip. But that is not science. That is a psychological and emotional response to his predicament. Perhaps it is his own guilt weighing on him, who knows.
I just don't like manipulation of fact in EITHER direction. I'm an agnostic when it comes to the Gwynn case. Curt Schilling on the other hand...
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you are the guy who has to constantly try and prove you're the smartest guy in the room.
Here's what GWYNN had to say on the matter and not the MEDIA.
Gwynn asked whether smokeless tobacco caused all of this. The head radiation oncologist at Scripps Clinic, Dr. Prabhakar Tripuraneni (whom the Gwynns call Dr. T.) said he couldn't definitively say dipping initiated the tumor. He says it's his opinion that the cancer was unrelated, but acknowledged there hadn't been sufficient studies done to prove it one way or another. Gwynn's reaction was, "Of course it caused it," and Alicia nodded.
"If Tony believes that, who am I to argue with him?" Tripuraneni says.
Not trying to prove anything, just enjoy a good discussion. I'm sorry that you can't see it for what it is. Believe me, I don't need affirmation or any pats on the back from anyone on the internet about being "the smartest guy in the room."
It's great that Tony is trying to show how harmful dipping can be by linking it to his form of cancer. But it is simply not logical to arrive at conclusions without any evidence. Sure, maybe his heart tells him it was caused by the dip. But that is not science. That is a psychological and emotional response to his predicament. Perhaps it is his own guilt weighing on him, who knows.
I just don't like manipulation of fact in EITHER direction. I'm an agnostic when it comes to the Gwynn case. Curt Schilling on the other hand...
I see it for exactly what it is. I know what the facts say.
I don't let this stuff bother me anymore. I used to, though. I had many email exchanges with Dr. Radu about NHR. I'm certain you know who he is.
You've completely spun this into a direction that was never my intention. I don't see this as a "good" discussion.
Maybe someone else will continue on, but I'm done.
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you are the guy who has to constantly try and prove you're the smartest guy in the room.
Here's what GWYNN had to say on the matter and not the MEDIA.
Gwynn asked whether smokeless tobacco caused all of this. The head radiation oncologist at Scripps Clinic, Dr. Prabhakar Tripuraneni (whom the Gwynns call Dr. T.) said he couldn't definitively say dipping initiated the tumor. He says it's his opinion that the cancer was unrelated, but acknowledged there hadn't been sufficient studies done to prove it one way or another. Gwynn's reaction was, "Of course it caused it," and Alicia nodded.
"If Tony believes that, who am I to argue with him?" Tripuraneni says.
Not trying to prove anything, just enjoy a good discussion. I'm sorry that you can't see it for what it is. Believe me, I don't need affirmation or any pats on the back from anyone on the internet about being "the smartest guy in the room."
It's great that Tony is trying to show how harmful dipping can be by linking it to his form of cancer. But it is simply not logical to arrive at conclusions without any evidence. Sure, maybe his heart tells him it was caused by the dip. But that is not science. That is a psychological and emotional response to his predicament. Perhaps it is his own guilt weighing on him, who knows.
I just don't like manipulation of fact in EITHER direction. I'm an agnostic when it comes to the Gwynn case. Curt Schilling on the other hand...
Tony is not showing anything. He's in the fucking ground.
But, you...you're still here trolling under the guise of a "good argument".
Here's what I can say about you, Fkskoal. When you quit, you had a brand you frequented. You hated this drug, and it came in a can with the word Skoal on it. Not only did you hate the stuff in the can, you hated the brand because that is what had you. Your name tells me all I need to know about how effective marketing was on you. What brought you to Skoal and what made that word so tainted that you said "fuck that" name?
BWT, Smokeless tobacco has been linked to esophagus, stomach, and pancreatic cancer (as well as the traditional mouth, tongue, cheek, gum, and throat cancers). ItÂ’s true that salivary cancer (what took Gwynn) is not on this list, but salivary cancer is quite rare in reality and there has been no research into the matter. It took over 20 years for scientists to link lung cancer to smoking, and that was with much more funding and examples. 1 out of 100,000 people get diagnosed with salivary cancer.
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Tony is not showing anything. He's in the fucking ground.
But, you...you're still here trolling under the guise of a "good argument".
Here's what I can say about you, Fkskoal. When you quit, you had a brand you frequented. You hated this drug, and it came in a can with the word Skoal on it. Not only did you hate the stuff in the can, you hated the brand because that is what had you. Your name tells me all I need to know about how effective marketing was on you. What brought you to Skoal and what made that word so tainted that you said "fuck that" name?
BWT, Smokeless tobacco has been linked to esophagus, stomach, and pancreatic cancer (as well as the traditional mouth, tongue, cheek, gum, and throat cancers). ItÂ’s true that salivary cancer (what took Gwynn) is not on this list, but salivary cancer is quite rare in reality and there has been no research into the matter. It took over 20 years for scientists to link lung cancer to smoking, and that was with much more funding and examples. 1 out of 100,000 people get diagnosed with salivary cancer.
Not trolling. No cynicism, sarcasm, or belittling here. Just stating my position, civilly. It's like that old Jack Sparrow quote, "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Understand?"
It's not trolling if we simply happen to disagree on what is a very nuanced topic.
Now, to answer your question- what brought me to Skoal is that it is quite literally the only brand of dip sold locally in my area (Brooklyn). There may be a few token bodegas or 711s that carry the occasional Cope, but Skoal is really the only thing readily stocked at any gas station around here. If you're lucky (well, unlucky, I guess). So, to your point, effective marketing is not really their forte around here. Because what made me choose that brand is pretty much geomarket dominance. In fact, if you walk into one of these stores and say Give me a can of dip, the cashier will have no idea what you're asking for. For 3-4 years I had to say "That round thing over there that says Skoal on it. The blue one." Lots of people in NYC don't know the terminology. Cigarettes obviously are a different story. In my case, aggressive marketing really did not contribute to what would ultimately become addiction. It was my own stupidity. I chose "FkSkoal" because that was literally the only brand behind the counter. The only other friend I knew who dipped never even referred to it as dip. It was always just Skoal, because that's all that was really available. As my career grew and I had more opportunities to travel for conferences, I would marvel at rows and rows of alternative brands in other states.
Plus, I'm really not that creative when it comes to picking names.
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Tony is not showing anything. He's in the fucking ground.
But, you...you're still here trolling under the guise of a "good argument".
Here's what I can say about you, Fkskoal. When you quit, you had a brand you frequented. You hated this drug, and it came in a can with the word Skoal on it. Not only did you hate the stuff in the can, you hated the brand because that is what had you. Your name tells me all I need to know about how effective marketing was on you. What brought you to Skoal and what made that word so tainted that you said "fuck that" name?
BWT, Smokeless tobacco has been linked to esophagus, stomach, and pancreatic cancer (as well as the traditional mouth, tongue, cheek, gum, and throat cancers). ItÂ’s true that salivary cancer (what took Gwynn) is not on this list, but salivary cancer is quite rare in reality and there has been no research into the matter. It took over 20 years for scientists to link lung cancer to smoking, and that was with much more funding and examples. 1 out of 100,000 people get diagnosed with salivary cancer.
Not trolling. No cynicism, sarcasm, or belittling here. Just stating my position, civilly. It's like that old Jack Sparrow quote, "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Understand?"
It's not trolling if we simply happen to disagree on what is a very nuanced topic.
Now, to answer your question- what brought me to Skoal is that it is quite literally the only brand of dip sold locally in my area (Brooklyn). There may be a few token bodegas or 711s that carry the occasional Cope, but Skoal is really the only thing readily stocked at any gas station around here. If you're lucky (well, unlucky, I guess). So, to your point, effective marketing is not really their forte around here. Because what made me choose that brand is pretty much geomarket dominance. In fact, if you walk into one of these stores and say Give me a can of dip, the cashier will have no idea what you're asking for. For 3-4 years I had to say "That round thing over there that says Skoal on it. The blue one." Lots of people in NYC don't know the terminology. Cigarettes obviously are a different story. In my case, aggressive marketing really did not contribute to what would ultimately become addiction. It was my own stupidity. I chose "FkSkoal" because that was literally the only brand behind the counter. The only other friend I knew who dipped never even referred to it as dip. It was always just Skoal, because that's all that was really available. As my career grew and I had more opportunities to travel for conferences, I would marvel at rows and rows of alternative brands in other states.
Plus, I'm really not that creative when it comes to picking names.
See, this is where I get confused.
You've referenced playing softball with all sorts of guys partaking in the stuff, but now you've only known "one other man"? I'm also confused (and this might be my ignorance) because I thought NYC has/had a ban on flavored tobacco. I guess I just need to get to know you better.
Either way, this conversation as mutated. It started out this weekend talking about whether companies have the right to sell the stuff. Now, you are spouting off facts like those "switch it" advocates that think smokers should become chewers. It's taking a dangerous turn for you, and I'm just hoping that you get your on right to keep this quit.
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Tony is not showing anything. He's in the fucking ground.
But, you...you're still here trolling under the guise of a "good argument".
Here's what I can say about you, Fkskoal. When you quit, you had a brand you frequented. You hated this drug, and it came in a can with the word Skoal on it. Not only did you hate the stuff in the can, you hated the brand because that is what had you. Your name tells me all I need to know about how effective marketing was on you. What brought you to Skoal and what made that word so tainted that you said "fuck that" name?
BWT, Smokeless tobacco has been linked to esophagus, stomach, and pancreatic cancer (as well as the traditional mouth, tongue, cheek, gum, and throat cancers). ItÂ’s true that salivary cancer (what took Gwynn) is not on this list, but salivary cancer is quite rare in reality and there has been no research into the matter. It took over 20 years for scientists to link lung cancer to smoking, and that was with much more funding and examples. 1 out of 100,000 people get diagnosed with salivary cancer.
Not trolling. No cynicism, sarcasm, or belittling here. Just stating my position, civilly. It's like that old Jack Sparrow quote, "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Understand?"
It's not trolling if we simply happen to disagree on what is a very nuanced topic.
Now, to answer your question- what brought me to Skoal is that it is quite literally the only brand of dip sold locally in my area (Brooklyn). There may be a few token bodegas or 711s that carry the occasional Cope, but Skoal is really the only thing readily stocked at any gas station around here. If you're lucky (well, unlucky, I guess). So, to your point, effective marketing is not really their forte around here. Because what made me choose that brand is pretty much geomarket dominance. In fact, if you walk into one of these stores and say Give me a can of dip, the cashier will have no idea what you're asking for. For 3-4 years I had to say "That round thing over there that says Skoal on it. The blue one." Lots of people in NYC don't know the terminology. Cigarettes obviously are a different story. In my case, aggressive marketing really did not contribute to what would ultimately become addiction. It was my own stupidity. I chose "FkSkoal" because that was literally the only brand behind the counter. The only other friend I knew who dipped never even referred to it as dip. It was always just Skoal, because that's all that was really available. As my career grew and I had more opportunities to travel for conferences, I would marvel at rows and rows of alternative brands in other states.
Plus, I'm really not that creative when it comes to picking names.
See, this is where I get confused.
You've referenced playing softball with all sorts of guys partaking in the stuff, but now you've only known "one other man"? I'm also confused (and this might be my ignorance) because I thought NYC has/had a ban on flavored tobacco. I guess I just need to get to know you better.
Either way, this conversation as mutated. It started out this weekend talking about whether companies have the right to sell the stuff. Now, you are spouting off facts like those "switch it" advocates that think smokers should become chewers. It's taking a dangerous turn for you, and I'm just hoping that you get your on right to keep this quit.
Softball was never part of my routine and while dip is present in leagues in some areas, it's not in others. I do only have one close friend who was a user (still is, actually).
And yes it is your ignorance re: flavored tobacco. There is a ban but mint and wintergreen are fair game. When I first started before the ban, which has only been around a couple of years, you could get citrus.
Additionally, the the smokers-to-chewers approach is something I never mentioned so I'm not sure where you are pulling that from. Perhaps it is your own misinterpretation of my positions, although I think I've been pretty clear.
Anyways, I post roll 100% approaching the first floor. Why are you breaking my balls about things taking a "dangerous turn"?
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My position: tobacco companies want me addicted and want my money. They don't care if it kills me because they know I have three kids. They figure that they can probably snag one of them in their cobweb. Tobacco product manufacturers are my enemy. They are trying to slowly suck my money and health. Fuck them, they will hopefully rot in hell. I would celebrate if the sales and manufacturing of nicotine/tobacco products was outlawed worldwide. I could give a shit about free market economics when it comes to this product. It is a scourge on humanity. Thank goodness I have this KTC community to help keep me quit. I like the support and the no-nonsense attitude when it comes to failure. I believe this no-nonsense culture has strengthened my quit and will allow me to keep my victorious streak, currently at 356 days, intact for the rest of my life. The people who I've seen be resistant to going all in with the brotherhood/accountability aspect are the ones who fail and/or drift away.
My perception of your position: tobacco companies are just another company selling a product for adults to enjoy. They should be left alone to conduct business as normal because implementing measures to further restrict sales and availability would stray from the principles of a free market economy. Consumers do not need protection other than the warnings on the product labels, so they make their choice whether or not to use the product. Yes, even if they are addicted. Any resulting cancer they get is their own fault. To complain about their ailments is a failure to accept personal responsibility. And in some cases, such as Tony Gwynn, their cancer is not even caused by tobacco. There has never been a scientific study performed to show that salivary gland cancer can be caused by tobacco so it must mean that his cancer was just bad genetic luck. Brotherhood and accountability are cult-like aspects of KTC. Accountability should begin and end with posting roll. Posting roll is the only good part of KTC and is where accountability should begin and end. The cult like aspects of KTC are annoying. Trophy tins are fine. Admonishing quitters who display weaknesses consistent with previous reliable indicators of failure should not be allowed as how are we to know that that common failure indicator is not a source of strength for that particular person. These KTC quitters should keep their mouth shut when they see behaviors indicative of failure.
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My position: tobacco companies want me addicted and want my money. They don't care if it kills me because they know I have three kids. They figure that they can probably snag one of them in their cobweb. Tobacco product manufacturers are my enemy. They are trying to slowly suck my money and health. Fuck them, they will hopefully rot in hell. I would celebrate if the sales and manufacturing of nicotine/tobacco products was outlawed worldwide. I could give a shit about free market economics when it comes to this product. It is a scourge on humanity. Thank goodness I have this KTC community to help keep me quit. I like the support and the no-nonsense attitude when it comes to failure. I believe this no-nonsense culture has strengthened my quit and will allow me to keep my victorious streak, currently at 356 days, intact for the rest of my life. The people who I've seen be resistant to going all in with the brotherhood/accountability aspect are the ones who fail and/or drift away.
My perception of your position: tobacco companies are just another company selling a product for adults to enjoy. They should be left alone to conduct business as normal because implementing measures to further restrict sales and availability would stray from the principles of a free market economy. Consumers do not need protection other than the warnings on the product labels, so they make their choice whether or not to use the product. Yes, even if they are addicted. Any resulting cancer they get is their own fault. To complain about their ailments is a failure to accept personal responsibility. And in some cases, such as Tony Gwynn, their cancer is not even caused by tobacco. There has never been a scientific study performed to show that salivary gland cancer can be caused by tobacco so it must mean that his cancer was just bad genetic luck. Brotherhood and accountability are cult-like aspects of KTC. Accountability should begin and end with posting roll. Posting roll is the only good part of KTC and is where accountability should begin and end. The cult like aspects of KTC are annoying. Trophy tins are fine. Admonishing quitters who display weaknesses consistent with previous reliable indicators of failure should not be allowed as how are we to know that that common failure indicator is not a source of strength for that particular person. These KTC quitters should keep their mouth shut when they see behaviors indicative of failure.
Pretty spot on. Agree to disagree!
In all seriousness, the only thing I would change is the last sentence. I don't think the successful quitters should keep their mouths shut when a road to caving is imminent. They should speak up, but we are all adults here and can express our concerns more tactfully. If we are truly about saving lives, a GTFOH mentality is not the way to go. Acknowledging the fact that you can't save everybody, an appeal to one's reason is always more effective.
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My position: tobacco companies want me addicted and want my money. They don't care if it kills me because they know I have three kids. They figure that they can probably snag one of them in their cobweb. Tobacco product manufacturers are my enemy. They are trying to slowly suck my money and health. Fuck them, they will hopefully rot in hell. I would celebrate if the sales and manufacturing of nicotine/tobacco products was outlawed worldwide. I could give a shit about free market economics when it comes to this product. It is a scourge on humanity. Thank goodness I have this KTC community to help keep me quit. I like the support and the no-nonsense attitude when it comes to failure. I believe this no-nonsense culture has strengthened my quit and will allow me to keep my victorious streak, currently at 356 days, intact for the rest of my life. The people who I've seen be resistant to going all in with the brotherhood/accountability aspect are the ones who fail and/or drift away.
My perception of your position: tobacco companies are just another company selling a product for adults to enjoy. They should be left alone to conduct business as normal because implementing measures to further restrict sales and availability would stray from the principles of a free market economy. Consumers do not need protection other than the warnings on the product labels, so they make their choice whether or not to use the product. Yes, even if they are addicted. Any resulting cancer they get is their own fault. To complain about their ailments is a failure to accept personal responsibility. And in some cases, such as Tony Gwynn, their cancer is not even caused by tobacco. There has never been a scientific study performed to show that salivary gland cancer can be caused by tobacco so it must mean that his cancer was just bad genetic luck. Brotherhood and accountability are cult-like aspects of KTC. Accountability should begin and end with posting roll. Posting roll is the only good part of KTC and is where accountability should begin and end. The cult like aspects of KTC are annoying. Trophy tins are fine. Admonishing quitters who display weaknesses consistent with previous reliable indicators of failure should not be allowed as how are we to know that that common failure indicator is not a source of strength for that particular person. These KTC quitters should keep their mouth shut when they see behaviors indicative of failure.
Pretty spot on. Agree to disagree!
In all seriousness, the only thing I would change is the last sentence. I don't think the successful quitters should keep their mouths shut when a road to caving is imminent. They should speak up, but we are all adults here and can express our concerns more tactfully. If we are truly about saving lives, a GTFOH mentality is not the way to go. Acknowledging the fact that you can't save everybody, an appeal to one's reason is always more effective.
Good luck!
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Just wanted to share on my lunch break
brooklyn 1 (http://i59.tinypic.com/qx2xs3.jpg)
brooklyn 2 (http://i62.tinypic.com/j639tg.jpg)
brooklyn 3 (http://i59.tinypic.com/220oao.jpg)
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Just wanted to share on my lunch break
brooklyn 1 (http://i59.tinypic.com/qx2xs3.jpg)
brooklyn 2 (http://i62.tinypic.com/j639tg.jpg)
brooklyn 3 (http://i59.tinypic.com/220oao.jpg)
NICE!!! Brooklyn in da house!!!!
Quit on...
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Just wanted to share on my lunch break
brooklyn 1 (http://i59.tinypic.com/qx2xs3.jpg)
brooklyn 2 (http://i62.tinypic.com/j639tg.jpg)
brooklyn 3 (http://i59.tinypic.com/220oao.jpg)
NICE!!! Brooklyn in da house!!!!
Quit on...
Good work. I like the 3rd pic.
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Just wanted to share on my lunch break
brooklyn 1 (http://i59.tinypic.com/qx2xs3.jpg)
brooklyn 2 (http://i62.tinypic.com/j639tg.jpg)
brooklyn 3 (http://i59.tinypic.com/220oao.jpg)
NICE!!! Brooklyn in da house!!!!
Quit on...
Good work. I like the 3rd pic.
Great Job FK!
You're doing it!
ODAAT and NAFAR
Cheers.
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Thanks brothers!