Stuff I'm right about

[rgross298]

I wrote a long explanation an decided to edit it. 

If you want an explanation pm me and I'll send it to you. 

I blame ust and the blood of the addicted is splattered on their hands! 

I was a child when I became an addict.  Most of us were. 

I am not going to argue disagree or think about it.  I studied it, I am at war with them for the rest of my life.  My mind is made up. 

This terrorist organization is responsible for the deaths of 3million people a year. 

Anyone who sympathizes, understands or doesn't hold tobacco to account for their acts to addict children to their product is not my friend.  I don't bullshit.  In this life if you take a stand, you will have enemies. 

I stand tall and UST is my ENIMY!  Yes I chose to dip.  A little child may also chose to go to the nice mans van to see his puppies too!  I blame them for deceiving me as a child to get me addicted for life. 

Those fuckers kidnaped my spirit and my potential.  Lookup Stockholm Syndrome.  It's time to embrace the suck and see the reality of the tobacco industry.

Although I respect the thought, I believe mark's argument suffers from something like the "straw man" fallacy. At any rate, we have here, in my opinion, two separate questions: "Who is ulitimately respnsible?" And "does UST and the like cross moral, if not legal boundaries?"

My answer to the first question is ME. One good reason to take this view is that any other view puts you in a situation where your fate is not even worth wasting though on. It's pointless. The Lord gave me the responsibility to accept Him or not, so I can't imagine He didn't give me the same ability when it came to tobacco. My answer to the second question is "yes.". But they (big tobacco) are only a little worse than every billion calorie snack that plasters "LOW FAT!!" and a picture of a superhero on the wrapper. Statistically, I'll bet pushing marketing apple juice on children does as much harm overall as tobacco marketing.

And I understand what you are insinuating by saying about "became an addict as a child.". But statistics don't bear this out. Unless you consider 20.1 years old a child.

Just for the record, I am NOT defending big tobacco. And yes, if you have the longer version, PM it to me. Or post it hear, its OK with me. I'm up for a good discussion. Lord knows my brain needs exercise!

If this is true, let's remove the ability of states and the feds to tax the shit out of tobacco and vacate the suits and return the billions in damages. Let's let them resume magazine, billboard, and bring back TV ads! We've wrongly persecuted and victimized that industry, users have been in control all along.

What a revelation, everyone is in control now! I'm buying tobacco stock!

Sorry for the Sarcasm, Zam, but I'm bitter about this topic.

:)

[zam]

I wrote a long explanation an decided to edit it. 

If you want an explanation pm me and I'll send it to you. 

I blame ust and the blood of the addicted is splattered on their hands! 

I was a child when I became an addict.  Most of us were. 

I am not going to argue disagree or think about it.  I studied it, I am at war with them for the rest of my life.  My mind is made up. 

This terrorist organization is responsible for the deaths of 3million people a year. 

Anyone who sympathizes, understands or doesn't hold tobacco to account for their acts to addict children to their product is not my friend.  I don't bullshit.  In this life if you take a stand, you will have enemies. 

I stand tall and UST is my ENIMY!  Yes I chose to dip.  A little child may also chose to go to the nice mans van to see his puppies too!  I blame them for deceiving me as a child to get me addicted for life. 

Those fuckers kidnaped my spirit and my potential.  Lookup Stockholm Syndrome.  It's time to embrace the suck and see the reality of the tobacco industry.

Although I respect the thought, I believe mark's argument suffers from something like the "straw man" fallacy. At any rate, we have here, in my opinion, two separate, two independent questions: "Who is ulitimately respnsible?" And "does UST and the like cross moral, if not legal boundaries?"

My answer to the first question is ME. One good reason to take this view is that any other view puts you in a situation where your fate is not even worth wasting though on. It's pointless. The Lord gave me the responsibility to accept Him or not, so I can't imagine He didn't give me the same ability when it came to tobacco. My answer to the second question is "yes.". But they (big tobacco) are only a little worse than every billion calorie snack that plasters "LOW FAT!!" and a picture of a superhero on the wrapper. Statistically, I'll bet pushing marketing apple juice on children does as much harm overall as tobacco marketing.

And I understand what you are insinuating by saying about "became an addict as a child.". But statistics don't bear this out. Unless you consider 20.1 years old a child.

Just for the record, I am NOT defending big tobacco. Beware of the straw man argument. Logic does not link my my belief in who is responsible with any prcieved sympathy for big tobacco. And yes, if you have the longer version, PM it to me. Or post it hear, its OK with me. I'm up for a good discussion. Lord knows my brain needs exercise!

[Mthomas3824]

[ERDVM]

   From another intro thread.  It made me think a little, and I posted here because I didn't want to hijack the new quitters thread

One thing of note you wont hear my blaming tobacco companies for my addiction.  Thats like the meth addict blaming the dealer.  I knew it was addictive I stopped for over a year before and then started again.  I am the one to blame for my addiction not tobacco companies.

You won't score any points here putting the shithole tobacco companies on a pedestal. They ALWAYS have made money off your ass by selling a highly addictive product, and mercilessly marketing it to you and your (future) children.

And fuck the meth dealer, too. That's some shitty logic, bro. You think the people and companies that supply this shit have no culpability, and you are entirely at fault?

Don't let mthomas catch wind of this BS.

Stay strong in the meantime.

My point was that blaming others for my problems is just a way to perpetuate the problem. At no point in time did I put tobacco companies on a pedastal. I just don't think blaming other people for my addiction to nicotine is the way to truly escape this addiction. Face it head on, smash through it, and be done with it.

I like the attitude.

Quit today. Look forward to your next roll post tomorrow.

Although it pains me greatly to say so :o , I agree with carumba. There will ALWAYS be a bogey man. Take away UST and nicotine and there will be another entity right there ready to clamp on the ball and chain. Hell, I think UST and the gang are pretty slimy, but so is the guy down the road financing a washer/dryer at about 75%. Do I think UST took advantage of my laziness and irresponsibiliy? Yep. Do I "blame" them for my addiction? No

blame/blām/Verb:   Assign responsibility for a fault or wrong.

In order for me to "blame" UST for 27+ years of idiocy, I would have to acknowledge that they were responsible for a series of dumb-ass decisions. If they were responsible for my decisions 190 days ago, why are they not responsible for those decisions tomorrow? If my logic is correct, UST has and still has control over my tobacco decision. Or they NEVER had control.

The big thing that KTC has taught me is this: Nicotine was NEVER in control. UST never made me dip. Krispy Creme didn't make me fat. What KTC did for me was to remind me that I was the one in control then, and I'm the one in control now. If the gobernint shut down UST and the like today, and burned every gram of tobacco, would the lessons learned here at KTC no longer be needed? Would those tobacco users just decide that there was no way now to feed the addiction and give up? Or would they turn to some Pfizer or Ben  Jerry's product?

Zam,
You just enlightened, encouraged, and gave me quit wood. No Pfizer product needed. (Not that I ever needed it....it was for a friend) :ph43r:

[zam]

  From another intro thread.  It made me think a little, and I posted here because I didn't want to hijack the new quitters thread

One thing of note you wont hear my blaming tobacco companies for my addiction.  Thats like the meth addict blaming the dealer.  I knew it was addictive I stopped for over a year before and then started again.  I am the one to blame for my addiction not tobacco companies.

You won't score any points here putting the shithole tobacco companies on a pedestal. They ALWAYS have made money off your ass by selling a highly addictive product, and mercilessly marketing it to you and your (future) children.

And fuck the meth dealer, too. That's some shitty logic, bro. You think the people and companies that supply this shit have no culpability, and you are entirely at fault?

Don't let mthomas catch wind of this BS.

Stay strong in the meantime.

My point was that blaming others for my problems is just a way to perpetuate the problem. At no point in time did I put tobacco companies on a pedastal. I just don't think blaming other people for my addiction to nicotine is the way to truly escape this addiction. Face it head on, smash through it, and be done with it.

I like the attitude.

Quit today. Look forward to your next roll post tomorrow.

Although it pains me greatly to say so :o , I agree with carumba. There will ALWAYS be a bogey man. Take away UST and nicotine and there will be another entity right there ready to clamp on the ball and chain. Hell, I think UST and the gang are pretty slimy, but so is the guy down the road financing a washer/dryer at about 75%. Do I think UST took advantage of my laziness and irresponsibiliy? Yep. Do I "blame" them for my addiction? No

blame/blām/Verb:   Assign responsibility for a fault or wrong.

In order for me to "blame" UST for 27+ years of idiocy, I would have to acknowledge that they were responsible for a series of dumb-ass decisions. If they were responsible for my decisions 190 days ago, why are they not responsible for those decisions tomorrow? If my logic is correct, UST has and still has control over my tobacco decision. Or they NEVER had control.

The big thing that KTC has taught me is this: Nicotine was NEVER in control. UST never made me dip. Krispy Creme didn't make me fat. What KTC did for me was to remind me that I was the one in control then, and I'm the one in control now. If the gobernint shut down UST and the like today, and burned every gram of tobacco, would the lessons learned here at KTC no longer be needed? Would those tobacco users just decide that there was no way now to feed the addiction and give up? Or would they turn to some Pfizer or Ben  Jerry's product?

[lhelms12]

One other observation today:   I'm finding that it is becoming increasing difficult to distinguish between a run of the mill bad mood, everyday normal bouts of anxiety, and craves.

Is this a good or bad thing? I'm a noob....45 days...

I think it's a good thing. I'll have to think about how to better put it. Maybe I'll come back and edit this later, but here goes:

I guess what I meant was this: Day 3 for example, I knew EXACTLY why I felt like shit, was wound up tight, anxious, etc. Now I'll get anxious, it just . . . me being anxious. Not related to nicotine and/or oral addictions. Anxious about my job, or the fact that I don't have an anniversary card yet, etc. NORMAL stuff. Not nicotine induced stuff. I had forgotten that NORMAL (non-nic addicts) people sometimes feel anxious (crave something).

I havent' thought this through yet, but anxious is different now. As a ninja dipper, I HAD to constantly worry about how I'd get my next hit. I now realize that before I was quit, I was ALWAYS anxious. That constant anxiety carried over into EVERYTHING in daily life. Example: The nic-bitch reminds me that I am "past due" for a dip, so anxiety starts to build as I look for a way to get my fix. If I am talking to your wife at that time about a new deck, that dip anxiety transfers to the deck discussion. And the conversation is clipped at best. Possibly an argument ensues and I walk off, and yes, walk off to get my fix. Now. . . .I still get anxious occasionally, but it seem to be over shit that is . . .well . . .normal.

Edit: Diesel, Let me be PERFECTLY clear. Day 176 is so much better than 100, which was SO much better than 50, that I literally can not describe it to you adequately. It it a good thing? It's all good. Really.

Thanks Zam. That actually does make sense and is actually kind of comforting. Ive had anxiety issues that I thought I was moving forward with but take a step back sometimes which leads me to think I'm going crazy or something. I too was ninja and what u say makes sense. I have to relearn a lot of things, even very basic ones. That process is scary to me and overwhelms me with fear sometimes. I can do it!!! I think I need more time as 45 days compared to 15 yrs is still a piss poor ratio. Thanks. Thanks to Wt as well for helping me understand anxiety better by sharing his experiences as well.

Zam... that is a very interesting thought, and I feel the same way. Many people that have been quit for a while tend to feel that as long as they have been quit, then there life should be honky dory. I feel that many times it is not necessarily a crave, but just the person is having a bad day or they are anxious about something. Both of these just naturally occur. I think that in the old days most of us thought that tobacco helped out with these types of events and that is why most relate these times with a crave, when in fact it isn't a crave. On the other hand, one of the main reasons that I quit using tobacco was that my nerves constantly stayed torn up. Before using tobacco, I never really became nervous. Since quitting, I have seen a major decline in the amount of nervous episodes.... Just some words for thought.

[Diesel2112]

One other observation today:   I'm finding that it is becoming increasing difficult to distinguish between a run of the mill bad mood, everyday normal bouts of anxiety, and craves.

Is this a good or bad thing? I'm a noob....45 days...

I think it's a good thing. I'll have to think about how to better put it. Maybe I'll come back and edit this later, but here goes:

I guess what I meant was this: Day 3 for example, I knew EXACTLY why I felt like shit, was wound up tight, anxious, etc. Now I'll get anxious, it just . . . me being anxious. Not related to nicotine and/or oral addictions. Anxious about my job, or the fact that I don't have an anniversary card yet, etc. NORMAL stuff. Not nicotine induced stuff. I had forgotten that NORMAL (non-nic addicts) people sometimes feel anxious (crave something).

I havent' thought this through yet, but anxious is different now. As a ninja dipper, I HAD to constantly worry about how I'd get my next hit. I now realize that before I was quit, I was ALWAYS anxious. That constant anxiety carried over into EVERYTHING in daily life. Example: The nic-bitch reminds me that I am "past due" for a dip, so anxiety starts to build as I look for a way to get my fix. If I am talking to your wife at that time about a new deck, that dip anxiety transfers to the deck discussion. And the conversation is clipped at best. Possibly an argument ensues and I walk off, and yes, walk off to get my fix. Now. . . .I still get anxious occasionally, but it seem to be over shit that is . . .well . . .normal.

Edit: Diesel, Let me be PERFECTLY clear. Day 176 is so much better than 100, which was SO much better than 50, that I literally can not describe it to you adequately. It it a good thing? It's all good. Really.

Thanks Zam. That actually does make sense and is actually kind of comforting. Ive had anxiety issues that I thought I was moving forward with but take a step back sometimes which leads me to think I'm going crazy or something. I too was ninja and what u say makes sense. I have to relearn a lot of things, even very basic ones. That process is scary to me and overwhelms me with fear sometimes. I can do it!!! I think I need more time as 45 days compared to 15 yrs is still a piss poor ratio. Thanks. Thanks to Wt as well for helping me understand anxiety better by sharing his experiences as well.

[Wt57]

One other observation today:   I'm finding that it is becoming increasing difficult to distinguish between a run of the mill bad mood, everyday normal bouts of anxiety, and craves.

Is this a good or bad thing? I'm a noob....45 days...

I don't know if it is a good thing or a bad thing but it is reality. And I'll throw my 2 cents in on it. I believe that the main reason that it is so difficult to determine what is going on is because we have been self medicating our brain for so long that we really can't recognize what life should be like. Like many of you I have never really had any adult life experiences without nicotine. (that's 35 yrs. supposedly as an adult) Now we have got to learn to be adults, learn to live, learn to discover what life without nicotine is like, experience everything that we understood about life in a completely different light. Our addicted mind will try to tell us that we need the nicotine to feel normal. (true we need it to feel the way that we have become accustomed to feeling) But we are now nicotine free and are learning to live that way!! The process isn't fast, it may not be easy but damn it is rewarding!

[zam]

One other observation today:   I'm finding that it is becoming increasing difficult to distinguish between a run of the mill bad mood, everyday normal bouts of anxiety, and craves.

Is this a good or bad thing? I'm a noob....45 days...

I think it's a good thing. I'll have to think about how to better put it. Maybe I'll come back and edit this later, but here goes:

I guess what I meant was this: Day 3 for example, I knew EXACTLY why I felt like shit, was wound up tight, anxious, etc. Now I'll get anxious, it just . . . me being anxious. Not related to nicotine and/or oral addictions. Anxious about my job, or the fact that I don't have an anniversary card yet, etc. NORMAL stuff. Not nicotine induced stuff. I had forgotten that NORMAL (non-nic addicts) people sometimes feel anxious (crave something).

I havent' thought this through yet, but anxious is different now. As a ninja dipper, I HAD to constantly worry about how I'd get my next hit. I now realize that before I was quit, I was ALWAYS anxious. That constant anxiety carried over into EVERYTHING in daily life. Example: The nic-bitch reminds me that I am "past due" for a dip, so anxiety starts to build as I look for a way to get my fix. If I am talking to your wife at that time about a new deck, that dip anxiety transfers to the deck discussion. And the conversation is clipped at best. Possibly an argument ensues and I walk off, and yes, walk off to get my fix. Now. . . .I still get anxious occasionally, but it seem to be over shit that is . . .well . . .normal.

Edit: Diesel, Let me be PERFECTLY clear. Day 176 is so much better than 100, which was SO much better than 50, that I literally can not describe it to you adequately. It it a good thing? It's all good. Really.

[Diesel2112]

One other observation today:  I'm finding that it is becoming increasing difficult to distinguish between a run of the mill bad mood, everyday normal bouts of anxiety, and craves.

Is this a good or bad thing? I'm a noob....45 days...

[zam]

One other observation today: I'm finding that it is becoming increasing difficult to distinguish between a run of the mill bad mood, everyday normal bouts of anxiety, and craves.

[zam]

G25 hit on something that I've been thinking about lately:

Quitting for you and you alone IS the best way to go. It IS the best way for your family, your loved ones. We (as a society, or just as a bunch of macho blow hards) don't like to think of "ourselves first." It's not in our nature. We're taught from a young age to put others first. Ironically, that can kill you, and cause pain for those that you purport to be putting "first."

Do I expect you to chose to post roll over an ice cream with the kids? It should never come to this, but yes, I do. why? Because that "selfish act" of putting yourself first is the MATURE thing to do. It's the adult thing to do, as we are the ones supposedly making the decisions not on instant gratification, but on the long term benefits.

Nothing wrong with quitting for you and you alone. And as Grizzly25 said in another thread: your loved ones benefit greatly from all your quitting. They are probably secretly praying that you will be selfish enough to want, all for yourself, freedom from a horrible habit, freedom from constant health scares, etc, etc.

What happens when you put Junior FIRST. You are doing IT ALL for Junior. Then you go out with some whale client who whips out a tin, slaps you on the back and offers you a go? I hope you are selfish enough to risk Jr's college fund to stay clean. Extreme example? yes, but the logic holds.

[TheShip]

I don't fully understand what my responsibilities are as a new quitter on this site. If someone could send me an inbox, it'd be greatly appreciated.

[zam]

I read a post by a fairly new, well intentioned quitter. His point was essentially that he would no longer post his number of days quit, just "day 1" from now on. I almost felt bad for this dude, because his heart was in the right place, and he had taken the time to deeply consider the stuff he read on KTC. I like the reasoning, the thought process that led him to think that, but felt the application of the idea sucked. ( BTW, SmokeyG pointed out in another thread that there is good reason NOT to treat every day as day 1. But that is another topic for another day). So, we quit for only today, and that insinuates that this day is all that really counts, right? No. That line of thinking missed the fact that addicts, me included, can often not be trusted for shit when they are living under the bitch's thumb. Therefore, I want to know that you kept your word yesterday. I need to know that. I need you to demand an accounting from me for yesterday. That last part is most important to me, so read it again. So really, yesterday counts damn near as much as today. Sure, that may not be quitter 101 appropriate material, but its a fact. That is why when I post:

zam -172 quit today

That is me promising to quit today, and telling you I kept my word yesterday. I'll treat today as day one, ANOTHER day one, my 172nd consecutive day one. THAT is why I post my quit number.

[zam]

Morpheus: Nicotine is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.
[Neo's eyes suddenly wander towards a sexy woman wearing a Copenhagen t-shirt]
Morpheus: Were you listening to me, Neo? Or were you looking at the woman in the Cope t-shirt?
Neo: I was...
Morpheus: [gestures with one hand] Look again.
[the woman in the cope t-shirt is now Agent Smith, holding an open can out towards Neo; Neo ducks]
Morpheus: Freeze it.
[Everybody and everything besides Neo and Morpheus freezes in time]
Neo: This... this isn't the Nicotine?
Morpheus: No. It is another training program designed to teach you one thing: the nic bitch is cunning, patient, and will pop up when you least expect it.

yes, it has been a pretty slow morning . . .