General Discussion - 2014

[nsterken]

That is 22 years of sobriety.

You are playing with a dangerous toy. This is not about a mental game, it is a physical thing and I have a great deal of personal experience with it.

Well 22 years of sobriety has not done much for your ethics. For anyone wondering, mj just deleted 3 posts to 3 articles I cited explaining what it is I am talking about.

Now, sir, please kindly go ahead and delete my account as I am no longer interested in taking part in a community that is all for censoring information that may help people recover from addictions they wish to be free from.

[Mjollnir]

You come in here advocating the thought that someday we can all use nicotine again and expect a warm welcome?

If that is what you got from reading my posts, please, start at the beginning ad reread.

In the meantime, here is part of what I was talking about. This article states addiction can be outgrown, about three scrolls down the page:

Edited by MJ


I will have to do some more research and try and find that published medical article I am thinking of but some of these are decent sources or at least decently cited.

Not saying what has kept you from dipping for 22 years is bad. Or that there is anything wrong with it. Just saying the more ya know, the more you grow. :)

That is 22 years of sobriety.

You are playing with a dangerous toy. This is not about a mental game, it is a physical thing and I have a great deal of personal experience with it.

[nsterken]

You come in here advocating the thought that someday we can all use nicotine again and expect a warm welcome?

If that is what you got from reading my posts, please, start at the beginning ad reread.

In the meantime, here is part of what I was talking about. This article states addiction can be outgrown, about three scrolls down the page:

Edited by MJ


I will have to do some more research and try and find that published medical article I am thinking of but some of these are decent sources or at least decently cited.

Not saying what has kept you from dipping for 22 years is bad. Or that there is anything wrong with it. Just saying the more ya know, the more you grow. :)

[Mjollnir]

I seriously doubt that.

??? You doubt He will bless you?

Friendly site you have here.

You come in here advocating the thought that someday we can all use nicotine again and expect a warm welcome?

[nsterken]

I seriously doubt that.

??? You doubt He will bless you?

Friendly site you have here.

[Mjollnir]

Well, it has been working for me for 22 years. 

I don't care what your theories are.

You are a troll.

And may the Lord bless you, too, sir.

I seriously doubt that.

[nsterken]

Well, it has been working for me for 22 years.

I don't care what your theories are.

You are a troll.

And may the Lord bless you, too, sir.

[Mjollnir]

As long as you are quit, you are always welcome.

However, to play on our equipment, you do have to post roll.  We've been lenient tonight as you are still acclimating yourself, but please feel free to join us.

I look forward to our talks man!

Thanks so much and I will post roll but am not used to this older format of forum. Do you have a link for where I post roll? I do not care which one I post in, the numbers do not really matter to me: right now, I know that Friday will be 4 weeks but that's about it.

And I also formulated what I think is a better explanation of what I am trying to say and posted it in this article but I would like to include it here, in case folks don't want to link to it, if it is alright with the mods here. If not, feel free to edit the post as you see fit.

I'm not saying you guys are wrong or trying to start a problem, I am legitemately trying to help. I think this is a really crucial issue in our world today and something we have all been decieved on. I am right now entertaining the idea of doing some research and writing a definitive article of my inital hypothesis, which I will post to my blog. If/when I do, I will let your this community know. I am totally open to the fact that I may be wrong but this hypothesis of mine has been being formed over the past 15 years and after watching a lot of folks I know die from substance abuse. And I'm sorry, but this model that we have now (and they are all very similar, 1,2,3, repeat) they simply do not work. And I think instead of blindly defending that to the death because we don't know what else may be out there, I think we should at least take a moment to see if neural pathways are actually permement (they're not, but, alas, I do not have alink for that article at the moment.) But I will try and organize that article and it will include that article in the footnotes.

Either way, it adds to my fantastical list of things to get done. LOL



So, Wastepanel responded to a post I made on that other Hoffman article and you can read his response there (I won't explain his response here):


http://www.quit4today.com/blog/2014/02/ ... omment-356

And this was my response for those who do not wish to go to that article:


The very fact that you state you 'thought you were cured' is what my theory is about. You were still addicted to tobacco. It's not what we consciously think but what our SUBCONCSIOUS thinks. You relapsed, why? U said it had been 3 years. So my point is supported: time, at least as we physicially measure it, does not apply.

U say it did not take long and you were back to using worse in 4 months. My theory says that in those 4 months, you were still aware that you were now using tobacco more frequently than you had in the past 3 years. If you still felt cured and that it was fine to use, then you were lying to yourself and that led to your using again.

For me, 2011 marked when you realized what addiction's reach could do, when given control. It does not mean that control was always there. It was gone for 3 years. Perhaps the temptation existed and that may be indicative of the level of 'quit' you were at (you were not at that time fully free from a tobacco addiction though it seemed you were.) But the addiction had no control at that time. It was in the shadows.

What I am talking about is ousting it from the shadows forever. As long as we believe that is impossible, it is. If we believe that it is possible, than it is possible. Does not mean that any specific amount of time could achieve that: could take 6 weeks, 6 years or never happen.

What I am saying is that I believe it is possible and should be what we are working towards, not simply the stage where we're keeping the addiction in the shadows because we watch really closely and vigilantly every day. I'm saying the victory is when the addiction has been slain because all the shadows he had to hide in have been removed. In my hypothesis, these 'shadows' are deeper problems and issues we have to deal with that modern psychology and treatment simply fails to address, whether it be purposefully or negligently.

In my theory, the 'quit' which killthecan.org is where the addiction is in the shadows (the quit, the remission) and this is good. Now we learn how to live without the crutch of our using. But the 'quit' is no type of victory and offers no such victory: the 'quit' is the post, the watch, the training, the rehab, the transition. The 'cure' is the goal. And it is possible. It is not something you consciously recognize, which is what you mistook my theory for. If you consciously feel 'cured', that is the addiction telling a lie from the shadows so that you might release him from the shadows because you are fooled that he is left. His second lie to you is that you can never get rid of him, that he will always be there.

And that is where my theory comes in: that that is a simple lie: remove his shadows and he will no longer be there. And he can be ousted forever. And you can let down your vigil because there will no longer be a prisoner to keep watch over. Then, you can live your life free from the use of tobacco and the horrible addiction that goes along with it.

--end post---

I re read that and wanted to add a point for clarity:

what I am trying to say is that 'feeling' cured or 'i got this' is NOT the same as actually 'being' cured. The old way of thinking purports that the latter is simply not possible and does not exist. My theory challenges this idea in that I believe the latter is possible, attainable and should be the victory fought for.

I do not believe that there is a specific time frame for being fully cured. I believe it is more about personal growth and maturity. And I also do not think we will be conscious of it. I think it is more of a natural thing. Sort of like true love. It can never be forced. A quit can be forced. A cure cannot.Hoffman Article

I'm not saying you guys are wrong or trying to start a problem, I am legitemately trying to help. I think this is a really crucial issue in our world today and something we have all been decieved on. I am right now entertaining the idea of doing some research and writing a definitive article of my inital hypothesis, which I will post to my blog. If/when I do, I will let your this community know. I am totally open to the fact that I may be wrong but this hypothesis of mine has been being formed over the past 15 years and after watching a lot of folks I know die from substance abuse. And I'm sorry, but this model that we have now (and they are all very similar, 1,2,3, repeat) they simply do not work. And I think instead of blindly defending that to the death because we don't know what else may be out there, I think we should at least take a moment to see if neural pathways are actually permement (they're not, but, alas, I do not have alink for that article at the moment.) But I will try and organize that article and it will include that article in the footnotes.

Well, it has been working for me for 22 years.

I don't care what your theories are.

You are a troll.

[nsterken]

As long as you are quit, you are always welcome.

However, to play on our equipment, you do have to post roll.  We've been lenient tonight as you are still acclimating yourself, but please feel free to join us.

I look forward to our talks man!

Thanks so much and I will post roll but am not used to this older format of forum. Do you have a link for where I post roll? I do not care which one I post in, the numbers do not really matter to me: right now, I know that Friday will be 4 weeks but that's about it.

And I also formulated what I think is a better explanation of what I am trying to say and posted it in this article but I would like to include it here, in case folks don't want to link to it, if it is alright with the mods here. If not, feel free to edit the post as you see fit.

I'm not saying you guys are wrong or trying to start a problem, I am legitemately trying to help. I think this is a really crucial issue in our world today and something we have all been decieved on. I am right now entertaining the idea of doing some research and writing a definitive article of my inital hypothesis, which I will post to my blog. If/when I do, I will let your this community know. I am totally open to the fact that I may be wrong but this hypothesis of mine has been being formed over the past 15 years and after watching a lot of folks I know die from substance abuse. And I'm sorry, but this model that we have now (and they are all very similar, 1,2,3, repeat) they simply do not work. And I think instead of blindly defending that to the death because we don't know what else may be out there, I think we should at least take a moment to see if neural pathways are actually permement (they're not, but, alas, I do not have alink for that article at the moment.) But I will try and organize that article and it will include that article in the footnotes.

Either way, it adds to my fantastical list of things to get done. LOL



So, Wastepanel responded to a post I made on that other Hoffman article and you can read his response there (I won't explain his response here):


http://www.quit4today.com/blog/2014/02/ ... omment-356

And this was my response for those who do not wish to go to that article:


The very fact that you state you 'thought you were cured' is what my theory is about. You were still addicted to tobacco. It's not what we consciously think but what our SUBCONCSIOUS thinks. You relapsed, why? U said it had been 3 years. So my point is supported: time, at least as we physicially measure it, does not apply.

U say it did not take long and you were back to using worse in 4 months. My theory says that in those 4 months, you were still aware that you were now using tobacco more frequently than you had in the past 3 years. If you still felt cured and that it was fine to use, then you were lying to yourself and that led to your using again.

For me, 2011 marked when you realized what addiction's reach could do, when given control. It does not mean that control was always there. It was gone for 3 years. Perhaps the temptation existed and that may be indicative of the level of 'quit' you were at (you were not at that time fully free from a tobacco addiction though it seemed you were.) But the addiction had no control at that time. It was in the shadows.

What I am talking about is ousting it from the shadows forever. As long as we believe that is impossible, it is. If we believe that it is possible, than it is possible. Does not mean that any specific amount of time could achieve that: could take 6 weeks, 6 years or never happen.

What I am saying is that I believe it is possible and should be what we are working towards, not simply the stage where we're keeping the addiction in the shadows because we watch really closely and vigilantly every day. I'm saying the victory is when the addiction has been slain because all the shadows he had to hide in have been removed. In my hypothesis, these 'shadows' are deeper problems and issues we have to deal with that modern psychology and treatment simply fails to address, whether it be purposefully or negligently.

In my theory, the 'quit' which killthecan.org is where the addiction is in the shadows (the quit, the remission) and this is good. Now we learn how to live without the crutch of our using. But the 'quit' is no type of victory and offers no such victory: the 'quit' is the post, the watch, the training, the rehab, the transition. The 'cure' is the goal. And it is possible. It is not something you consciously recognize, which is what you mistook my theory for. If you consciously feel 'cured', that is the addiction telling a lie from the shadows so that you might release him from the shadows because you are fooled that he is left. His second lie to you is that you can never get rid of him, that he will always be there.

And that is where my theory comes in: that that is a simple lie: remove his shadows and he will no longer be there. And he can be ousted forever. And you can let down your vigil because there will no longer be a prisoner to keep watch over. Then, you can live your life free from the use of tobacco and the horrible addiction that goes along with it.

--end post---

I re read that and wanted to add a point for clarity:

what I am trying to say is that 'feeling' cured or 'i got this' is NOT the same as actually 'being' cured. The old way of thinking purports that the latter is simply not possible and does not exist. My theory challenges this idea in that I believe the latter is possible, attainable and should be the victory fought for.

I do not believe that there is a specific time frame for being fully cured. I believe it is more about personal growth and maturity. And I also do not think we will be conscious of it. I think it is more of a natural thing. Sort of like true love. It can never be forced. A quit can be forced. A cure cannot.Hoffman Article

[Mjollnir]

Wish you luck pal,unfortunately lbj is wired a little different see ,I can't have just one.
Interesting read though. 'Popcorn'

I do apologize for how snarky my post sounds, but it is meant more to evince a reaction than anything (mostly done for shock value).

But that is my point, lbj. It is TRUE: we all are unique. But, we also are all human. Some things are the same.

Take this because I truly want to offer it to you but you will need to completely open your mind for 1 moment. You say, you cannot have just one. That's how I was. When I was a youth, with weed. In my twenties, with beer. Whatever it is, I have a theory that we will all have a period where we try to escape the catalyst but we cannot have 'just one'.

So you quit. But you still are at the 'mentality' stage that, you can't have just one. To me, this also should not be considered a fully quit person who has been completely cured of their addiction. To me, when you reach the full curement of your addiction (meaning, you really no longer are addicted, or, you CAN now have just one,) is when you can confidently take a dip and chew it and that is it. Also, in my hypothesis, when you reach this mark, you will know because you will not be able to finish the dip because it will taste awful.

Sound like BS? Example: I can hardly finish a beer now. Most of the time, I end up dumping them down the drain. I have lost the taste for them. How? I believe I simply drank so many of them that I outgrew the taste. And that is when you have defeated an addiction.

I do not believe that you DEFEAT an addiction in the way we think but you actually OUTGROW an addiction, to put it more accurately. I mean this: if you think you cannot have just 1 dip or you could relapse, then that is true for your reality and you should not chew at ALL. But, this does not mean that you cannot grow to the point where you can have 1 chew and that be it. Again, when this happens, you probably won't like the taste, anyways.

Now, here is the basis of my theory: you can never OUTGROW the addiction IF you yourself BELIEVE that you can never have JUST one. I believe that our thoughts, through our subconcsious, greatly influence our biochemical makeup and tolerance for stress. So I theorize that if you believe when you are told that you will always be an addict to dip, you will actually always be an addict to dip, since that is what your mind has decided is true reality. If you begin to reject that notion, it crumbles and is no longer as concrete. You will then start to believe differently. At this point, you will no longer have to be worriying about staying quite, you will simply BE quit. Why? Your mind finally began to believe it. As long as you believe it, you are. You can have 3 dips and still be quit. Unless someone tells you (or you tell yourself) that having those 3 dips means you have to start all over again and you are no longer quite and are now fully addicted again, possibly worse than before. See how that works? Crazy shit.

Now, realistically, if you throw in 3 dips and chew them, yeah, you are probably not fully quit in the first place. This does not mean that you weren't quit, or are starting over, it just shows you where you are SUBCONSCIOUSLY. For me, I know I could not buy a tin of dip cuz I would chew the whole thing. I am not yet fully quit. How do I know when I am fully quit? I don't think you can fully put a number on it. I think it will be different for all of us. But I think it is defenitely related to how much personal growth we experience while we are quitting. And personal growth surrounding our attitudes toward using tobacco.

So, in summary, I am saying that perhaps a better attitude FOR YOU may be that currently, you cannot have JUST one. But, someday, you will be to the point where you could have JUST one. Not maybe, but DEFENITELY. And if you take that dip with the thought in mind that "Now I have made it, I can handle having just one dip, I have waited so long for this," that is where you will fail but not because you are a hopeless addict but that you have fooled yourself into thinking a certain thing so that you can have dip!

How you will know you have made it is when your honest answer becomes 'Yes, I could have just one and know that I will not become addicted. But, coincidentally, I don't even want ONE dip because I don't chew tobacco anymore." And yes, that day can come. And there will be nothing wrong if you have that dip. Most likely, it will taste like shit. Every cig I've ever had tasted like shit. Every puff of weed. Beer doesn't taste like shit, but it tastes a lot stronger than it ever did before.

I just think we all can have a much more successful time quitting if we start to downplay tobacco addiction to what it is: an immature and dangerous habit we formed in an ineffective attempt at managing our lives. If we start to treat it as such, it can become quite a bit more managable. Again, our reality is whatever we believe it to be.

If we make our quit out to be the worst thing ever, it will be. If we simply say, ah, this sucks, then it just sucks. Naps help. Herbal chew REALLY can help, I think.

But we can get rid of the addiction and I do not believe that we can never outgrow the addiction ever again. I think that is a very self defeating attitude, and, if it is true, then none of us should have ever quit in the first place.

not sure if it is the enjoyment of reading fiction or what, but a little research into brain chemistry and physiology are needed here for you as maybe you will learn that once you have created the pathways in your brain, they will be there and any relapse will set you back to worse that what you were.

and yes we put ourselves in this situation, and yes it is a lifelong fight, but it is a fight that can be won, and the further out we go, the less energy it takes to fight and the better we feel.

so you keep your own unproven theories and we here will keep doing what is the best for us (and is the best way to quit and stay quit that I out on the market)....and that is a fact.

lbj I will join you my brother for some 'Popcorn'

I'm with lbj and sirderek, I've tested my wiring over 40+ years of being addicted. I've had several times I paused for several months to 3 years and each time on dip led me to using more than I did when I had stopped.
I don't know your purpose here but obviously it isn't quitting. I believe this is pure bullshit and ask the administrators to ban you because I don't believe you are quit, you aren't posting roll and you are plainly a troll! 'Finger'

Bumping this.


Ok Einstein, if you don't like it, get the fuck out.

This is your only warning.

[Wt57]

Wish you luck pal,unfortunately lbj is wired a little different see ,I can't have just one.
Interesting read though. 'Popcorn'

I do apologize for how snarky my post sounds, but it is meant more to evince a reaction than anything (mostly done for shock value).

But that is my point, lbj. It is TRUE: we all are unique. But, we also are all human. Some things are the same.

Take this because I truly want to offer it to you but you will need to completely open your mind for 1 moment. You say, you cannot have just one. That's how I was. When I was a youth, with weed. In my twenties, with beer. Whatever it is, I have a theory that we will all have a period where we try to escape the catalyst but we cannot have 'just one'.

So you quit. But you still are at the 'mentality' stage that, you can't have just one. To me, this also should not be considered a fully quit person who has been completely cured of their addiction. To me, when you reach the full curement of your addiction (meaning, you really no longer are addicted, or, you CAN now have just one,) is when you can confidently take a dip and chew it and that is it. Also, in my hypothesis, when you reach this mark, you will know because you will not be able to finish the dip because it will taste awful.

Sound like BS? Example: I can hardly finish a beer now. Most of the time, I end up dumping them down the drain. I have lost the taste for them. How? I believe I simply drank so many of them that I outgrew the taste. And that is when you have defeated an addiction.

I do not believe that you DEFEAT an addiction in the way we think but you actually OUTGROW an addiction, to put it more accurately. I mean this: if you think you cannot have just 1 dip or you could relapse, then that is true for your reality and you should not chew at ALL. But, this does not mean that you cannot grow to the point where you can have 1 chew and that be it. Again, when this happens, you probably won't like the taste, anyways.

Now, here is the basis of my theory: you can never OUTGROW the addiction IF you yourself BELIEVE that you can never have JUST one. I believe that our thoughts, through our subconcsious, greatly influence our biochemical makeup and tolerance for stress. So I theorize that if you believe when you are told that you will always be an addict to dip, you will actually always be an addict to dip, since that is what your mind has decided is true reality. If you begin to reject that notion, it crumbles and is no longer as concrete. You will then start to believe differently. At this point, you will no longer have to be worriying about staying quite, you will simply BE quit. Why? Your mind finally began to believe it. As long as you believe it, you are. You can have 3 dips and still be quit. Unless someone tells you (or you tell yourself) that having those 3 dips means you have to start all over again and you are no longer quite and are now fully addicted again, possibly worse than before. See how that works? Crazy shit.

Now, realistically, if you throw in 3 dips and chew them, yeah, you are probably not fully quit in the first place. This does not mean that you weren't quit, or are starting over, it just shows you where you are SUBCONSCIOUSLY. For me, I know I could not buy a tin of dip cuz I would chew the whole thing. I am not yet fully quit. How do I know when I am fully quit? I don't think you can fully put a number on it. I think it will be different for all of us. But I think it is defenitely related to how much personal growth we experience while we are quitting. And personal growth surrounding our attitudes toward using tobacco.

So, in summary, I am saying that perhaps a better attitude FOR YOU may be that currently, you cannot have JUST one. But, someday, you will be to the point where you could have JUST one. Not maybe, but DEFENITELY. And if you take that dip with the thought in mind that "Now I have made it, I can handle having just one dip, I have waited so long for this," that is where you will fail but not because you are a hopeless addict but that you have fooled yourself into thinking a certain thing so that you can have dip!

How you will know you have made it is when your honest answer becomes 'Yes, I could have just one and know that I will not become addicted. But, coincidentally, I don't even want ONE dip because I don't chew tobacco anymore." And yes, that day can come. And there will be nothing wrong if you have that dip. Most likely, it will taste like shit. Every cig I've ever had tasted like shit. Every puff of weed. Beer doesn't taste like shit, but it tastes a lot stronger than it ever did before.

I just think we all can have a much more successful time quitting if we start to downplay tobacco addiction to what it is: an immature and dangerous habit we formed in an ineffective attempt at managing our lives. If we start to treat it as such, it can become quite a bit more managable. Again, our reality is whatever we believe it to be.

If we make our quit out to be the worst thing ever, it will be. If we simply say, ah, this sucks, then it just sucks. Naps help. Herbal chew REALLY can help, I think.

But we can get rid of the addiction and I do not believe that we can never outgrow the addiction ever again. I think that is a very self defeating attitude, and, if it is true, then none of us should have ever quit in the first place.

not sure if it is the enjoyment of reading fiction or what, but a little research into brain chemistry and physiology are needed here for you as maybe you will learn that once you have created the pathways in your brain, they will be there and any relapse will set you back to worse that what you were.

and yes we put ourselves in this situation, and yes it is a lifelong fight, but it is a fight that can be won, and the further out we go, the less energy it takes to fight and the better we feel.

so you keep your own unproven theories and we here will keep doing what is the best for us (and is the best way to quit and stay quit that I out on the market)....and that is a fact.

lbj I will join you my brother for some 'Popcorn'

I'm with lbj and sirderek, I've tested my wiring over 40+ years of being addicted. I've had several times I paused for several months to 3 years and each time one dip led me to using more than I did when I had stopped.
I don't know your purpose here but obviously it isn't quitting. I believe this is pure bullshit and ask the administrators to ban you because I don't believe you are quit, you aren't posting roll and you are plainly a troll! 'Finger'

[Evil_Won]

Wish you luck pal,unfortunately lbj is wired a little different see ,I can't have just one.
Interesting read though. 'Popcorn'

I do apologize for how snarky my post sounds, but it is meant more to evince a reaction than anything (mostly done for shock value).

But that is my point, lbj. It is TRUE: we all are unique. But, we also are all human. Some things are the same.

Take this because I truly want to offer it to you but you will need to completely open your mind for 1 moment. You say, you cannot have just one. That's how I was. When I was a youth, with weed. In my twenties, with beer. Whatever it is, I have a theory that we will all have a period where we try to escape the catalyst but we cannot have 'just one'.

So you quit. But you still are at the 'mentality' stage that, you can't have just one. To me, this also should not be considered a fully quit person who has been completely cured of their addiction. To me, when you reach the full curement of your addiction (meaning, you really no longer are addicted, or, you CAN now have just one,) is when you can confidently take a dip and chew it and that is it. Also, in my hypothesis, when you reach this mark, you will know because you will not be able to finish the dip because it will taste awful.

Sound like BS? Example: I can hardly finish a beer now. Most of the time, I end up dumping them down the drain. I have lost the taste for them. How? I believe I simply drank so many of them that I outgrew the taste. And that is when you have defeated an addiction.

I do not believe that you DEFEAT an addiction in the way we think but you actually OUTGROW an addiction, to put it more accurately. I mean this: if you think you cannot have just 1 dip or you could relapse, then that is true for your reality and you should not chew at ALL. But, this does not mean that you cannot grow to the point where you can have 1 chew and that be it. Again, when this happens, you probably won't like the taste, anyways.

Now, here is the basis of my theory: you can never OUTGROW the addiction IF you yourself BELIEVE that you can never have JUST one. I believe that our thoughts, through our subconcsious, greatly influence our biochemical makeup and tolerance for stress. So I theorize that if you believe when you are told that you will always be an addict to dip, you will actually always be an addict to dip, since that is what your mind has decided is true reality. If you begin to reject that notion, it crumbles and is no longer as concrete. You will then start to believe differently. At this point, you will no longer have to be worriying about staying quite, you will simply BE quit. Why? Your mind finally began to believe it. As long as you believe it, you are. You can have 3 dips and still be quit. Unless someone tells you (or you tell yourself) that having those 3 dips means you have to start all over again and you are no longer quite and are now fully addicted again, possibly worse than before. See how that works? Crazy shit.

Now, realistically, if you throw in 3 dips and chew them, yeah, you are probably not fully quit in the first place. This does not mean that you weren't quit, or are starting over, it just shows you where you are SUBCONSCIOUSLY. For me, I know I could not buy a tin of dip cuz I would chew the whole thing. I am not yet fully quit. How do I know when I am fully quit? I don't think you can fully put a number on it. I think it will be different for all of us. But I think it is defenitely related to how much personal growth we experience while we are quitting. And personal growth surrounding our attitudes toward using tobacco.

So, in summary, I am saying that perhaps a better attitude FOR YOU may be that currently, you cannot have JUST one. But, someday, you will be to the point where you could have JUST one. Not maybe, but DEFENITELY. And if you take that dip with the thought in mind that "Now I have made it, I can handle having just one dip, I have waited so long for this," that is where you will fail but not because you are a hopeless addict but that you have fooled yourself into thinking a certain thing so that you can have dip!

How you will know you have made it is when your honest answer becomes 'Yes, I could have just one and know that I will not become addicted. But, coincidentally, I don't even want ONE dip because I don't chew tobacco anymore." And yes, that day can come. And there will be nothing wrong if you have that dip. Most likely, it will taste like shit. Every cig I've ever had tasted like shit. Every puff of weed. Beer doesn't taste like shit, but it tastes a lot stronger than it ever did before.

I just think we all can have a much more successful time quitting if we start to downplay tobacco addiction to what it is: an immature and dangerous habit we formed in an ineffective attempt at managing our lives. If we start to treat it as such, it can become quite a bit more managable. Again, our reality is whatever we believe it to be.

If we make our quit out to be the worst thing ever, it will be. If we simply say, ah, this sucks, then it just sucks. Naps help. Herbal chew REALLY can help, I think.

But we can get rid of the addiction and I do not believe that we can never outgrow the addiction ever again. I think that is a very self defeating attitude, and, if it is true, then none of us should have ever quit in the first place.

Ok Einstein, if you don't like it, get the fuck out.

This is your only warning.

Finally. Someone thinking clearly.

Dude. Post roll to play on this playground. Thats the price of admission. If you dont like KTC there are other options that will better meet your ideology.

[Mjollnir]

Wish you luck pal,unfortunately lbj is wired a little different see ,I can't have just one.
Interesting read though. 'Popcorn'

I do apologize for how snarky my post sounds, but it is meant more to evince a reaction than anything (mostly done for shock value).

But that is my point, lbj. It is TRUE: we all are unique. But, we also are all human. Some things are the same.

Take this because I truly want to offer it to you but you will need to completely open your mind for 1 moment. You say, you cannot have just one. That's how I was. When I was a youth, with weed. In my twenties, with beer. Whatever it is, I have a theory that we will all have a period where we try to escape the catalyst but we cannot have 'just one'.

So you quit. But you still are at the 'mentality' stage that, you can't have just one. To me, this also should not be considered a fully quit person who has been completely cured of their addiction. To me, when you reach the full curement of your addiction (meaning, you really no longer are addicted, or, you CAN now have just one,) is when you can confidently take a dip and chew it and that is it. Also, in my hypothesis, when you reach this mark, you will know because you will not be able to finish the dip because it will taste awful.

Sound like BS? Example: I can hardly finish a beer now. Most of the time, I end up dumping them down the drain. I have lost the taste for them. How? I believe I simply drank so many of them that I outgrew the taste. And that is when you have defeated an addiction.

I do not believe that you DEFEAT an addiction in the way we think but you actually OUTGROW an addiction, to put it more accurately. I mean this: if you think you cannot have just 1 dip or you could relapse, then that is true for your reality and you should not chew at ALL. But, this does not mean that you cannot grow to the point where you can have 1 chew and that be it. Again, when this happens, you probably won't like the taste, anyways.

Now, here is the basis of my theory: you can never OUTGROW the addiction IF you yourself BELIEVE that you can never have JUST one. I believe that our thoughts, through our subconcsious, greatly influence our biochemical makeup and tolerance for stress. So I theorize that if you believe when you are told that you will always be an addict to dip, you will actually always be an addict to dip, since that is what your mind has decided is true reality. If you begin to reject that notion, it crumbles and is no longer as concrete. You will then start to believe differently. At this point, you will no longer have to be worriying about staying quite, you will simply BE quit. Why? Your mind finally began to believe it. As long as you believe it, you are. You can have 3 dips and still be quit. Unless someone tells you (or you tell yourself) that having those 3 dips means you have to start all over again and you are no longer quite and are now fully addicted again, possibly worse than before. See how that works? Crazy shit.

Now, realistically, if you throw in 3 dips and chew them, yeah, you are probably not fully quit in the first place. This does not mean that you weren't quit, or are starting over, it just shows you where you are SUBCONSCIOUSLY. For me, I know I could not buy a tin of dip cuz I would chew the whole thing. I am not yet fully quit. How do I know when I am fully quit? I don't think you can fully put a number on it. I think it will be different for all of us. But I think it is defenitely related to how much personal growth we experience while we are quitting. And personal growth surrounding our attitudes toward using tobacco.

So, in summary, I am saying that perhaps a better attitude FOR YOU may be that currently, you cannot have JUST one. But, someday, you will be to the point where you could have JUST one. Not maybe, but DEFENITELY. And if you take that dip with the thought in mind that "Now I have made it, I can handle having just one dip, I have waited so long for this," that is where you will fail but not because you are a hopeless addict but that you have fooled yourself into thinking a certain thing so that you can have dip!

How you will know you have made it is when your honest answer becomes 'Yes, I could have just one and know that I will not become addicted. But, coincidentally, I don't even want ONE dip because I don't chew tobacco anymore." And yes, that day can come. And there will be nothing wrong if you have that dip. Most likely, it will taste like shit. Every cig I've ever had tasted like shit. Every puff of weed. Beer doesn't taste like shit, but it tastes a lot stronger than it ever did before.

I just think we all can have a much more successful time quitting if we start to downplay tobacco addiction to what it is: an immature and dangerous habit we formed in an ineffective attempt at managing our lives. If we start to treat it as such, it can become quite a bit more managable. Again, our reality is whatever we believe it to be.

If we make our quit out to be the worst thing ever, it will be. If we simply say, ah, this sucks, then it just sucks. Naps help. Herbal chew REALLY can help, I think.

But we can get rid of the addiction and I do not believe that we can never outgrow the addiction ever again. I think that is a very self defeating attitude, and, if it is true, then none of us should have ever quit in the first place.

Ok Einstein, if you don't like it, get the fuck out.

This is your only warning.

[wastepanel]

30 days is freaking awesome man.

We post roll here not to dwell on our addiction, but to celebrate our freedom.  Do you lock your door at night?  Even when burglars are not in sight?  Do you buckle your seat belt in the car?  Even though you're driving safely?  The point of roll is not be sad about addiction.  It is a reminder.  It's me saying "Oh, yeah...I can't have just one."  (And if you read my words above, you'll see I've been there with the "just one" mentality and it failed splendidly.)

Stick around.  You're fun.

You misinterpreted my post a bit.

Im not talking so much about 30 day mark, more like where you were when you relapsed. And I tried to address that in a post: I'm saying that it was not inevitable for you to relapse, even if that is how it felt. I allege that even if you had NOT taken that dip at the party, that shortly after that, you would have taken one somehwere else. And it had more to do with where you were mentailty wise in your quit as opposed to a day marker.

I think your guys roll call idea is great. And I think the site is great. But I think the American idea that addiction is scientifically permenant is untrue and detrimental to Americans. And I will post some articles for source material for you guys, gotta run to the store right now.

As long as you are quit, you are always welcome.

However, to play on our equipment, you do have to post roll. We've been lenient tonight as you are still acclimating yourself, but please feel free to join us.

I look forward to our talks man!

[nsterken]

30 days is freaking awesome man.

We post roll here not to dwell on our addiction, but to celebrate our freedom. Do you lock your door at night? Even when burglars are not in sight? Do you buckle your seat belt in the car? Even though you're driving safely? The point of roll is not be sad about addiction. It is a reminder. It's me saying "Oh, yeah...I can't have just one." (And if you read my words above, you'll see I've been there with the "just one" mentality and it failed splendidly.)

Stick around. You're fun.

You misinterpreted my post a bit.

Im not talking so much about 30 day mark, more like where you were when you relapsed. And I tried to address that in a post: I'm saying that it was not inevitable for you to relapse, even if that is how it felt. I allege that even if you had NOT taken that dip at the party, that shortly after that, you would have taken one somehwere else. And it had more to do with where you were mentailty wise in your quit as opposed to a day marker.

I think your guys roll call idea is great. And I think the site is great. But I think the American idea that addiction is scientifically permenant is untrue and detrimental to Americans. And I will post some articles for source material for you guys, gotta run to the store right now.