Author Topic: Tired and done. Quitting, Day 1.  (Read 6010 times)

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Offline Samrs

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Re: Tired and done. Quitting, Day 1.
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2018, 10:41:26 PM »
Originally posted 08 May 2017, 10:18

[Originally posted in June.  Saving because I am sure I will use it again.]

I used to work with a company that did educational materials for people dealing with schizophrenia and depression.  I was just a software developer, but being the only software developer (small company) I got to learn a thing or two from the folks developing content for the CDs we put together.

It's been nearly 20 years, so a lot of what I learned has kind of faded, except one thing that was repeated over... and over... and over, in every possible format, in every possible way.  Text, graphics, audio, visual, multimedia clips - you name it.

Take your medicine.  Take your meds.

People would come up with all sorts of crappy reasons why they shouldn't have to take their meds.  The #1 reason, over and above everything else, was something like, "I feel fine now!  I haven't heard any voices or thought about killing myself in weeks!"

Yeah, you know why, genius?  It's because you've been taking your damn meds.

KTC doesn't give you a prescription for a drug.  What it does give you is a prescription for how to beat your addiction: WUPP EDD.

That's it.  That's your medicine.  There's your meds.  It's the reason you're quit.  Just... keep... doing it.

Take your damn meds.

You wake up feeling crappy?  Post roll.
You wake up feeling great?  Post roll.
You still think about nic all the time?  Post roll.
You hardly ever think about nic anymore?  Post roll.
Life is great?  Post roll.
Life sucks?  Post roll.
Your day is go-go-go from the minute you roll out of bed?  Wow!  You sure are busy!  Now FOCKING POST ROLL.

There's a half dozen ways to get on roll.  USE ONE OF THEM.  First thing in the morning, every damn day.

You want to stay quit?  Take your meds.  WUPP EDD.  It's that simple.
."We have so much experience here in lying to ourselves and others, that it takes a strong voice to snap ourselves out of it... Be thankful that all these people are willing to be invested in you saving your life." -- drstober
"You're playing a game of chicken with a dead plant in a plastic can. If you cave you lost to a dead plant." -- Candoit
"The answer isn't more numbers. The answer is build relationships." -- Broccoli-saurus
"ok. now groop hug." -- 'drome
"The rule is WUPP (Wake Up Piss Post) regardless of time or zone, unless you are in the Phantom Zone.  In that case, hit up Jor-El and he can get you on roll." -- S412
My Intro - The Weight of Days - Mall Walking - Workin' it off in the Excercise Group
Vote Jo Jorgensen in 2020 ... http://jo20.com

Offline Samrs

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Re: Tired and done. Quitting, Day 1.
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2018, 10:40:48 PM »
Originally posted 05 May 2017, 13:42

Poetry (or, at least, something poetic) from wildirish317 on leaving KTC after you hit the HOF...

Quote from: wildirish317
I see his point
I was going to leave too
Right after my June 2016 group finished boarding the train.
Then there were a few guys in July
that I wanted to stick around and celebrate with.
I had to conduct August onto the train.
Oh, September has a few bad ass quitters.
I had to celebrate with them.
I am leaving though
Right after the celebrations are over.
."We have so much experience here in lying to ourselves and others, that it takes a strong voice to snap ourselves out of it... Be thankful that all these people are willing to be invested in you saving your life." -- drstober
"You're playing a game of chicken with a dead plant in a plastic can. If you cave you lost to a dead plant." -- Candoit
"The answer isn't more numbers. The answer is build relationships." -- Broccoli-saurus
"ok. now groop hug." -- 'drome
"The rule is WUPP (Wake Up Piss Post) regardless of time or zone, unless you are in the Phantom Zone.  In that case, hit up Jor-El and he can get you on roll." -- S412
My Intro - The Weight of Days - Mall Walking - Workin' it off in the Excercise Group
Vote Jo Jorgensen in 2020 ... http://jo20.com

Offline Samrs

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Re: Tired and done. Quitting, Day 1.
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2018, 10:39:50 PM »
Originally posted 05 May 2017, 12:18 #32

The Mall Walking Thread from April's GroupMe
Samrs Walking at the frickin' mall like some AARP wannabe
Nick    @Samrs do you have bright white shoes on?
Samrs   Black and gold trail runners, @Nick
Harvest @Samrs please tell me you're wearing a track suit and fanny pack.
Samrs   @Harvest I lack the sense of style to even pull that off
Samrs   It's weird. I'm getting these confrontational looks from the septuagenarian contingent.
Harvest Turf wars.
Harvest You're mall walking but obviously not taking it seriously because you're on your phone like a "one of those kids". ?
Samrs   "Yo bitch! This be Mall Walker turf. Respect the grey or we gonna hafts cut you!"
Harvest Make it a game @Samrs. F
Harvest Flirt with the old ladies
Harvest Or see how many you can out pace
Samrs   I've been using voice recognition... you should see some of the looks. "We DO NOT TALK!"
Nick    @Samrs , first stop at Foot Locker and pick up yourself a nice bright white pair of New Balance shoes. Second, tell them bitches to back the fuck off or your going to cut them with your plastic butter knife you stole from the food court
Harvest Use a different accent each time you pass a group
Harvest Or at least stop at buy a visor
Batdad  Walk in front of them. Then slow down. Then pass them again. Like they do on the interstate
Samrs   I'm just thankful I haven't seen anybody I know. When you go mall walking and recognize people, then you know you're old.
Harvest Merge and take out the front quarter panel.....of their walker?
Batdad  For the love of god! Don't use your turn signal ??
Harvest Then glare at them like it's their fault
Samrs   @Batdad I'm not messing with any of them. A couple of them are walking with white strap all over their body. We could probably snap me like a twig without breaking a sweat
Harvest Or just keep it on continuously and slow down at every exit....store entrance?
Samrs   Not white, weights... that's what I get for whispering so I don't attract their attention!
Batdad  I feel like @Harvest and I have some anger issues towards elderly drivers
Batdad  I was wondering what the white stripe was. Maybe a gang thing?
Harvest "Middle aged mall walker gets mobbed today at local mall by group of elderly walking enthusiasts.
Witnesses say that the victim was attempted to be strangled by a white sweatband and beaten with 2lb ankle weights.
Responding emergency services stated that upon arrival the victim was screaming into his phone
"I DIE FREE FROM THE NIC BITCH! YOU CAN'T TAKE THST AWAY FROM ME!"
Full coverage and updates at 6pm.
Batdad  Epic!!
Samrs   Thank you guys for making this bearable. The little old ladies jump and scowl when you burst out laughing, btw
Harvest They're like little terriers
Harvest All nervous and full of bark
Harvest Skittish
Harvest So this whole thing reminds me of this video
Samrs   I am laughing so hard... they are going to call the mall cop on me, I know it

."We have so much experience here in lying to ourselves and others, that it takes a strong voice to snap ourselves out of it... Be thankful that all these people are willing to be invested in you saving your life." -- drstober
"You're playing a game of chicken with a dead plant in a plastic can. If you cave you lost to a dead plant." -- Candoit
"The answer isn't more numbers. The answer is build relationships." -- Broccoli-saurus
"ok. now groop hug." -- 'drome
"The rule is WUPP (Wake Up Piss Post) regardless of time or zone, unless you are in the Phantom Zone.  In that case, hit up Jor-El and he can get you on roll." -- S412
My Intro - The Weight of Days - Mall Walking - Workin' it off in the Excercise Group
Vote Jo Jorgensen in 2020 ... http://jo20.com

Offline Samrs

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Re: Tired and done. Quitting, Day 1.
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2018, 10:37:09 PM »
Originally posted 03 May 2017, 10:57

Some thoughts on why 100 days spurred by Geralt:

Quote from: Samrs
Quote from: Geralt
I'm not sure where the logic of 100 days being considered as Hall of Fame in this awesome site, but I was assuming something about it and I may be partly right?? I sometimes watch the reality TV show Intervention and I think the minimum time they treat an addict is 3 months. I also just googled how long treatments can be for addictions and research shows that treatment can take a minimum of 90 days.

Therefore I conclude that once we reach 100 days we earn the title of Hall of Famer because we not only stayed sober or quit for that many days but because we surpassed the minimum # of recovery days recommended for addicts a.k.a substance abusers.
I find it interesting that research seems to indicate that it takes two months or more to develop a new habit.

In the past three months, I have not killed my nicotine addiction.  I never will.  However, I have done my best to develop the habit of quitting.

WUPP, EDD.  Habit.
Texting brothers and sisters every day.  Habit.
Checking to make sure everyone I support in other groups has posted.  Habit.
Sharing my struggles in texts and on the forums. Habit.
Jumping on the forum every 2.6 seconds.  Habit.  (Though I should probably back off on this one a bit...)

So I think there's actually two components here.  One is logging a minimum number of recovery days.  The other is logging the minimum number of days needed to develop the habits that will help keep you quit.

Note - both are minimums, and working on developing good "KTC habits" over your first 100 days will end up ensuring that you stick around and get a whole lot more than the minimum number of recovery days.
."We have so much experience here in lying to ourselves and others, that it takes a strong voice to snap ourselves out of it... Be thankful that all these people are willing to be invested in you saving your life." -- drstober
"You're playing a game of chicken with a dead plant in a plastic can. If you cave you lost to a dead plant." -- Candoit
"The answer isn't more numbers. The answer is build relationships." -- Broccoli-saurus
"ok. now groop hug." -- 'drome
"The rule is WUPP (Wake Up Piss Post) regardless of time or zone, unless you are in the Phantom Zone.  In that case, hit up Jor-El and he can get you on roll." -- S412
My Intro - The Weight of Days - Mall Walking - Workin' it off in the Excercise Group
Vote Jo Jorgensen in 2020 ... http://jo20.com

Offline Samrs

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Re: Tired and done. Quitting, Day 1.
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2018, 10:35:51 PM »
Originally posted 25 Apr 2017, 22:11

From KingNothing in July 2017:

Quote from: KingNothing
Quote from: Bullridingaddict559
Bullridingaddict559- day 15 starting to put it out of my mind
What's the hurry? I still think about my addiction every day and I'm damn glad I do. I consciously make an effort every single day to confront my addiction head-on and overwhelm that addiction with brute force.

WORD OF WARNING: You do not "beat" your addiction by putting it out of your mind. You cannot "forget" that you were addicted and somehow go about your "normal" life pretending that it was never a part of you. If you are trying to forget your addiction, you are on the path to failure. You will soon forget how bad day 1 was, how enslaved you were to the worm dirt, how you traded family time for dipping time, how you willingly tried to slowly kill yourself. Don't forget those things. Those are the core of your motivation to quit one day at a time.

Each of you is a nicotine addict. Your addict brain will never "forget" that it was addicted to nicotine. It will lie in wait and on your ninth beer at a wedding reception five years from now, you will allow yourself to think "I'm not addicted any more. Just one dip won't hurt." Do NOT let yourself slip into this mindset.
."We have so much experience here in lying to ourselves and others, that it takes a strong voice to snap ourselves out of it... Be thankful that all these people are willing to be invested in you saving your life." -- drstober
"You're playing a game of chicken with a dead plant in a plastic can. If you cave you lost to a dead plant." -- Candoit
"The answer isn't more numbers. The answer is build relationships." -- Broccoli-saurus
"ok. now groop hug." -- 'drome
"The rule is WUPP (Wake Up Piss Post) regardless of time or zone, unless you are in the Phantom Zone.  In that case, hit up Jor-El and he can get you on roll." -- S412
My Intro - The Weight of Days - Mall Walking - Workin' it off in the Excercise Group
Vote Jo Jorgensen in 2020 ... http://jo20.com

Offline Samrs

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Re: Tired and done. Quitting, Day 1.
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2018, 10:34:25 PM »
Originally posted 21 Apr 2017, 09:31

Recording a paraphrase of something Zam posted in July 2017:

"If your judgement as to the quit process was beyond question, you'd be quit and wouldn't have signed up for this freakshow."
."We have so much experience here in lying to ourselves and others, that it takes a strong voice to snap ourselves out of it... Be thankful that all these people are willing to be invested in you saving your life." -- drstober
"You're playing a game of chicken with a dead plant in a plastic can. If you cave you lost to a dead plant." -- Candoit
"The answer isn't more numbers. The answer is build relationships." -- Broccoli-saurus
"ok. now groop hug." -- 'drome
"The rule is WUPP (Wake Up Piss Post) regardless of time or zone, unless you are in the Phantom Zone.  In that case, hit up Jor-El and he can get you on roll." -- S412
My Intro - The Weight of Days - Mall Walking - Workin' it off in the Excercise Group
Vote Jo Jorgensen in 2020 ... http://jo20.com

Offline Samrs

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Re: Tired and done. Quitting, Day 1.
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2018, 10:33:06 PM »
Originally posted 19 Apr 2017, 09:59

[Posted in April 2017 , but I wanted to preserve it here as welll...]

Quote from: Samrs
Just had something pop up as a "memory" on Facebook. Three years ago, to this day, my house caught on fire. 
 
The fact I'd hit HOF on the day our house burned down never clicked.

Nobody was home at the time, and it was a beautiful day so even all the animals were outside.  My wife called to tell me that a neighbor had called her on her cell phone to tell us our house was on fire.  I messaged my boss at work, jumped in the car and headed home...

... and then stopped. To buy a can.  Because I was almost out.

When I look back on my life, that's one of the most shameful, lowest points.  In a way, though, it was a blessing, because that event - that one stop - is really when I started thinking that I didn't just have a habit.  It really gnawed at me that I was that dependent on chew.  That I would literally let everything else burn in order to get my dip.

I came back to that often in the past 100 days, especially when I was feeling crappy and distracted.

Romans 8:28 says "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

I've got a new house now. Losing that place was an unbelievable blessing, in so, so many ways... and whenever I come home, now, I have a tangible reminder of that day when I hit bottom, and why I never want to go back to being that guy.

."We have so much experience here in lying to ourselves and others, that it takes a strong voice to snap ourselves out of it... Be thankful that all these people are willing to be invested in you saving your life." -- drstober
"You're playing a game of chicken with a dead plant in a plastic can. If you cave you lost to a dead plant." -- Candoit
"The answer isn't more numbers. The answer is build relationships." -- Broccoli-saurus
"ok. now groop hug." -- 'drome
"The rule is WUPP (Wake Up Piss Post) regardless of time or zone, unless you are in the Phantom Zone.  In that case, hit up Jor-El and he can get you on roll." -- S412
My Intro - The Weight of Days - Mall Walking - Workin' it off in the Excercise Group
Vote Jo Jorgensen in 2020 ... http://jo20.com

Offline Samrs

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Re: Tired and done. Quitting, Day 1.
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2018, 10:30:05 PM »
Originally posted 06 Apr 2017, 08:25 #16
 
Gold from Zam on "trading addictions"...

Quote from: Zam
If anyone out there is worried about trading addictions, and getting hooked on fake dip, seeds, knitting, cheeseburgers, butt plugs...whatever it is that you need to keep your promise and make another first thing the next morning...I got good news!   After you have been quit a while, you can go to other sites like Killthefakedip.com, and stoppingknittingbeforeitkillsyou.com to help you with your new addiction.  Oh wait...there are no sites like that...because there are no people with those issues.  Sites like that don't exist because guys like me (day 1900 or so) don't have problems quitting seeds and fake dip.  Hell, I didn't use fake until I hit a crave superhighway around day 20.  From then on I used fake like a madman for...I have no idea how long.  I also have no idea when I stopped using it.  <---think about that last sentence.  Can you imagine yourself a few months ago suddenly waking up and realizing that hadn't had a dip or used nicotine in months...and you hadn't even been trying to quit?  Of course not.  But this was my experience with fake dip (and ground ginger).  Seriously, this is just not possible with nicotine.  Because nicotine and seeds aren't the same.  Nicotine and fake dip aren't the same.  They ain't even in the same ballpark.  No matter how much you use them.

Still worried about getting "addicted" to seeds or fake or whatever?   Ask any 1,989 day vet if they have developed a problem with fake, or toothpicks, etc.  Hell, the beer's on me if you can even find a comma+ vet that has even HEARD of anyone with "fake dip problem."  Chances are, you'll be lucky to find a old vet that can even remember the last time they used fake dip.  Would I leave my family on Chistmas Eve and drive through a snowstorm looking for my fresh can of mint leaves if I was out?  Oh hell no.  Would I have made that drive 1900 days ago for a fresh can of Copenhagan?.....you know the answer.

Don't confuse the issue.  Nicotine is the issue.
."We have so much experience here in lying to ourselves and others, that it takes a strong voice to snap ourselves out of it... Be thankful that all these people are willing to be invested in you saving your life." -- drstober
"You're playing a game of chicken with a dead plant in a plastic can. If you cave you lost to a dead plant." -- Candoit
"The answer isn't more numbers. The answer is build relationships." -- Broccoli-saurus
"ok. now groop hug." -- 'drome
"The rule is WUPP (Wake Up Piss Post) regardless of time or zone, unless you are in the Phantom Zone.  In that case, hit up Jor-El and he can get you on roll." -- S412
My Intro - The Weight of Days - Mall Walking - Workin' it off in the Excercise Group
Vote Jo Jorgensen in 2020 ... http://jo20.com

Offline Samrs

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Re: Tired and done. Quitting, Day 1.
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2018, 10:28:27 PM »
Originally posted 01 Apr 2017, 23:39

(Another one from July 2017, among other places.  I hope to expand on and refine this as time goes by...)


DON'T BE THIS GUY:
That's just a selection from some of the caver answers I've seen in the past couple of months.  That's not even close to all of them.  I'd estimate that alcohol is involved in at least half of the caves that get related here on KTC.  That's not counting the ones that cave, quit posting and just fade away.

The quickest and fastest way to kill your quit in the first couple of months is to drink (especially with other people who chew/smoke).

So, just... don't.  Don't be that guy.  If you are serious about your quit, giving up alcohol for a little while is a really small price to pay in order to ensure you stay quit.
."We have so much experience here in lying to ourselves and others, that it takes a strong voice to snap ourselves out of it... Be thankful that all these people are willing to be invested in you saving your life." -- drstober
"You're playing a game of chicken with a dead plant in a plastic can. If you cave you lost to a dead plant." -- Candoit
"The answer isn't more numbers. The answer is build relationships." -- Broccoli-saurus
"ok. now groop hug." -- 'drome
"The rule is WUPP (Wake Up Piss Post) regardless of time or zone, unless you are in the Phantom Zone.  In that case, hit up Jor-El and he can get you on roll." -- S412
My Intro - The Weight of Days - Mall Walking - Workin' it off in the Excercise Group
Vote Jo Jorgensen in 2020 ... http://jo20.com

Offline Samrs

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Re: Tired and done. Quitting, Day 1.
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2018, 10:26:12 PM »
Originally posted 01 Apr 2017, 20:16

(Posted in July 2017, and preserved here because unfortunately, I think I'm going to need to reference this again and again and again...)


In general, I am a fuzzy care bear.  I love supporting people.  This site is awesome, the quitters here are awesome, and I don't mind being on the phone talking or texting or swapping PMs with someone going through their quit.  I'll sit there and listen to you rage at me, or tell me about your job or your kids or significant other.  I'll do my best to encourage you, psych you up, pick you up, get you back on your feet and dust you off if that's what you need! Whatever it takes for you to get through the day and stay away from a can... so long as you

WUPP, EDD.
That's the minimum.  One day.  One post.  One promise.

This is the the price of admission.
That's the price that you pay to get dozens of quitters in your corner, ready to help you at a moment's notice.  It's not too steep, I don't think.  Less than 60 seconds at the start of your day.

If you can't post roll, post and ask for a pickup.  If you can't get on the site, text someone and ask for a pickup.  

First thing in the morning, every damn day.

If quitting isn't worth 60 seconds of your time, brother... why are you even here?

If quitting isn't worth 60 seconds of your time, brother... why should I even care?
."We have so much experience here in lying to ourselves and others, that it takes a strong voice to snap ourselves out of it... Be thankful that all these people are willing to be invested in you saving your life." -- drstober
"You're playing a game of chicken with a dead plant in a plastic can. If you cave you lost to a dead plant." -- Candoit
"The answer isn't more numbers. The answer is build relationships." -- Broccoli-saurus
"ok. now groop hug." -- 'drome
"The rule is WUPP (Wake Up Piss Post) regardless of time or zone, unless you are in the Phantom Zone.  In that case, hit up Jor-El and he can get you on roll." -- S412
My Intro - The Weight of Days - Mall Walking - Workin' it off in the Excercise Group
Vote Jo Jorgensen in 2020 ... http://jo20.com

Offline Samrs

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Re: Tired and done. Quitting, Day 1.
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2018, 10:23:41 PM »
Originally posted 21 Feb 2017, 14:44

I've been going back through the intros from my April group, and noticed that quite a few folks posted periodic updates. I hadn't thought to do that, but wanted to at least drop something in here to let anyone who comes across my into know how I'm doing.

I'll be honest, I was really, really afraid that I wouldn't like Nic-Free Sam.

Turns out, he's actually a pretty cool guy. A whole hell of a lot more fun to hang around with than that idiot Addict Sam.

Day 43, and loving being quit ODAAT.
."We have so much experience here in lying to ourselves and others, that it takes a strong voice to snap ourselves out of it... Be thankful that all these people are willing to be invested in you saving your life." -- drstober
"You're playing a game of chicken with a dead plant in a plastic can. If you cave you lost to a dead plant." -- Candoit
"The answer isn't more numbers. The answer is build relationships." -- Broccoli-saurus
"ok. now groop hug." -- 'drome
"The rule is WUPP (Wake Up Piss Post) regardless of time or zone, unless you are in the Phantom Zone.  In that case, hit up Jor-El and he can get you on roll." -- S412
My Intro - The Weight of Days - Mall Walking - Workin' it off in the Excercise Group
Vote Jo Jorgensen in 2020 ... http://jo20.com

Offline Samrs

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Re: Tired and done. Quitting, Day 1.
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2018, 10:23:06 PM »
Originally posted 10 Jan 2017, 12:29

Can, JGlav - thank you so much. Damnit, I'm crying. I want so much to be a different person, and this is a big part of it. Thank you for your words of encouragement.
."We have so much experience here in lying to ourselves and others, that it takes a strong voice to snap ourselves out of it... Be thankful that all these people are willing to be invested in you saving your life." -- drstober
"You're playing a game of chicken with a dead plant in a plastic can. If you cave you lost to a dead plant." -- Candoit
"The answer isn't more numbers. The answer is build relationships." -- Broccoli-saurus
"ok. now groop hug." -- 'drome
"The rule is WUPP (Wake Up Piss Post) regardless of time or zone, unless you are in the Phantom Zone.  In that case, hit up Jor-El and he can get you on roll." -- S412
My Intro - The Weight of Days - Mall Walking - Workin' it off in the Excercise Group
Vote Jo Jorgensen in 2020 ... http://jo20.com

Offline Samrs

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  • Quit Date: 10 Jan 2017
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Tired and done. Quitting, Day 1.
« on: September 17, 2018, 10:22:26 PM »
(See https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/qs_xtreme/tired-and-done-quitting-day-1-t11735.html for my original archived intro thread)

Originally posted 10 Jan 2017, 11:18

Hey all. I've been chewing for over 30 years, and finally have had enough. I was gearing up for Yet Another attempt at doing it on my own, and not hopeful about being able to do it. Too many years, too much of a habit.

Then my wife sent me a FB message at work, and told me she wanted to help me. I hadn't mentioned it to her; I hadn't said anything... and out of the blue, she came to me, not to complain, not to nag, but to tell me she wanted to be my support and help me quit. She mentioned KTC, and I've spent the morning reading over the site.

She's a fine woman. I don't deserve her, but she's stuck with me, and I want to quit and make sure that she's stuck with me for a long, long, LONG time to come!

So, today is my Day 1. I am not looking forward to it. I struggle with my temper, though I've mellowed with age. Just don't have the energy for it anymore, I guess. But I am afraid of how I might treat my wife and my girls as I struggle through this. It's going to be a point of constant vigilance and prayer for me.

Don't know what else to say aside from that, and to ask y'all for your support. I hope that I can be a support in turn, as well.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 10:27:02 PM by Samrs »
."We have so much experience here in lying to ourselves and others, that it takes a strong voice to snap ourselves out of it... Be thankful that all these people are willing to be invested in you saving your life." -- drstober
"You're playing a game of chicken with a dead plant in a plastic can. If you cave you lost to a dead plant." -- Candoit
"The answer isn't more numbers. The answer is build relationships." -- Broccoli-saurus
"ok. now groop hug." -- 'drome
"The rule is WUPP (Wake Up Piss Post) regardless of time or zone, unless you are in the Phantom Zone.  In that case, hit up Jor-El and he can get you on roll." -- S412
My Intro - The Weight of Days - Mall Walking - Workin' it off in the Excercise Group
Vote Jo Jorgensen in 2020 ... http://jo20.com