6 Days Out

[Done4Me]

As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).

Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.

I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.

My issues with your statement above:

#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.

#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.

#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.

I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.

P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.

1. Automatically linking libertarianism with being "seriously pro big tobacco" reveals your inherent misunderstanding of the philosophy of libertarianism.

We are all responsible for our own actions, so yes, tobacco IS a personal choice. That is not a ridiculous belief, as you claim. No one put a gun to my head when I took my first dip. As an individual with free will, I make conscious lifestyle choices, fully aware of all consequences. Which is why I am now quit.

Large sugary drinks were nearly banned here in NYC, because the state believes it gets to decide what is healthy and unhealthy. Where do we draw the line? These are the big-picture questions with which libertarians have real issues. Take big tobacco to task for marketing to children, ban "fun" flavors of dip (which is NYC law), and even require vendors to remove all tobacco products from being publicly visible. Fine. But to completely ban a substance because the state is looking out for your personal health? On that I call bull shit. Paternalist bull shit, to be more precise. Let me make my own INDIVIDUAL decisions, both bad and good.

2. There are definitely online cult-like qualities exhibited on KTC in my opinion. I know I am not the first person to voice this on here. And yes, I have studied cult movements in relation to sociology and political science (I am university professor). One of the hallmark qualities of a cult is the admonishing of anyone with ideas that don't fit within the running ideology. I have seen KTC members do this to noobies with trophy cans (empties). It's as though no one can acknowledge that a trophy can might help better motivate an individual in their quit. So instead of having a real dialogue, you run them off the site. Doesn't really jive with the whole "brotherhood" line being peddled.

3. I have numbers with other quitters, they know who they are. Have not met other quitters in person due to work and the fact that there are very few active NYC-based quitters. Also, used chat early on but haven't since due to work.

IMO, my viewpoint of KTC having cult-like aspects does not help nor hinder my quit. It is simply an observation. Now, I do think the site could improve as a whole if members stopped running newbies off for having trophy cans. You want to call someone out for being dishonorable? No problem with that- when it comes to caving. But a trophy can being dishonorable? REALLY?

But for me personally, the culty aspects really makes no difference. Again, just a simple observation. KTC serves its purposes, which is keeping me accountable in my quit.

Whatever. Just chug the koolaid and make this quit last forever. Quit being so righteous.

Big Tobacco is pure evil.

Funny you should mention "chugging the kool-aid" in a discussion on the cult side of KTC. LOL.

I meant it to be funny (or ironic). I went to college. Tobacco companies are targeting children. It's not a choice. It's a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government. It is pure evil and definitely not a choice.

"It is a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government."

So is alcohol. But there are those who can enjoy a beer every now and then, and there are those who are abusive alcoholics.

To suggest that we have no choice is truly playing the victim card. I made my choice to dip- and then I made my choice to quit.

To suggest that we have no choice also diminishes the efforts of all those people who have refused to use tobacco in any form, ever. They had a choice, and they made the right choice from the beginning.

Tobacco is the leading cause of preventable death in the world. Evil people are expanding their fortunes from killing you and your children. It is as addictive as heroin, meth, and crack.

I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression. Until you see it as an act of aggression designed to steal time and money from people then we are going to disagree. If you see it for what it is it will fall right in line with your political philosophy.

"I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression."

I truly do not. It is actually one of the more restrictive markets, these days at least.

In the debate over personal choice versus victims of aggressive marketing, what more evidence do you need when a product you're trying to sell is mandated to have a label on it which says quite clearly in black and white that THIS PRODUCT WILL KILL YOU.

Sounds like you've made your choice!

Do you have kids? Do you remember the kids dipping/smoking in school?

I'm 28 with a 6-month old boy.

Tobacco marketing and advertising has been the subject of very strict legislation in recent years. It's not the same playing field as it was decades ago. So let's not kid ourselves. Before I started my quit, I was well aware of the health issues, the carcinogens, and the BIG BLACK LABEL reminding me that I will die if I opened the tin.

Spare me the big bad wolf of aggressive tobacco marketing. Let's talk today, let's talk 2014. I see more anti-tobacco advertising than anything else!

In addition to the marketing aspect, there is legislation on the table here in NYC where tobacco products cannot even be visible in the store. It must be stored under the counter. You also have to be 21 (not 18) in NYC to buy tobacco.

Legislators, public health agencies, and non-profits are doing more than ever to combat tobacco use in all forms. I see zero aggressive marketing- just plenty of people choosing to ignore the warnings because they wanna get a nice buzz. It's a design flaw in humanity- to only see the short-term gains and ignore the long-term consequences.

It literally takes one or two cigarettes/dips to get a person hooked. Read the science of nicotine addiction. The first cigarettes or chews that a kid has are not from a pack he bought at the gas station. He either stole them from his parents or got them from a friend. The shit is designed (nicotine levels are regulated exactly in each dose by the multi-billion dollar manufacturer) to deliver a punch that will trigger addiction at a very high rate.

Do a little research into how these tobacco companies do business in other parts of the world where advertising regulations are unheard of, and where product warning labels are not required.

You can get this poison on any street corner and if you're addicted it takes 20 years off of your life. You need to understand that we ARE being assaulted by this industry with aggression. Big tobacco is killing millions every year for profit. That is not freedom my friend. How hard have you fought for your freedom these first few months? What if you didn't have KTC to keep you accountable? Most people are not successful quitting. It's because at the point of addiction it is no longer a personal choice. The addicts are enslaved by a product designed to enslave them, steal their money, and kill them early. The shit sells itself in middle school parking lots. No marketing is needed. It's cheap. It's a fix. It's a nasty addiction.

My choice is that I will remain free by any means necessary. A huge part of my quit and a lot of others that I know here is their hatred for big tobacco. I haven't gotten into the discussion of whether or not nicotine addiction is a personal choice before. So I do appreciate you sharing your viewpoint. But I wholeheartedly disagree. Tobacco companies are assaulting the world's population, plain and simple. For us here at KTC, due to it's wonderful resources, we are educated to make the choice to be free. We have to fight to be free. But for most people out there it is not a choice. Not a choice at all.

EDIT - the warning labels didn't cause me to make a choice in the least.

I know all about the science behind maximizing addictive chemicals to create lifetime buyers of tobacco.

I knew it before I started dipping. That still didn't stop me. Because I made (erroneous as it were) my OWN choice to try it anyways. I CHOSE to assume that, somehow, my own body chemistry was somehow different that the rest of humanity. No tobacco company sold me on that idea. Our own fallacies as human beings are responsible for that. And we can only chalk that up to personal choice.

It's good to see different perspectives. But for me, when it comes to dip, I don't blame anyone but myself for getting addicted. Big tobacco didn't force me to do it. I did it just because.

On the other hand, I still will continue to call out the cult-like aspects exhibited on KTC. I mentioned in another thread about someone who came here and spoke of a trophy tin. Needless to say, he left the site because of the holier than thou attitude he received as a result.

I see nothing wrong with a trophy tin. If that's what keeps you quit, then fine. By any means necessary. There was another guy talking about turning his collection of empty tins into a pool table or something. I say, go for it.

I must follow 50 instagram accounts of individuals celebrating dip life, posting videos of packing enormous lips. Don't know why I do it. But in some weird way, it has contributed to my quit.

I await the next "veteran" to come on here and play pseudo-psychologist, and tell me to get off the site because that type of behavior will lead to a crave and that is not tolerated here.

Let's not all try to play psychologist and assume we understand the inner-workings of the behavior patterns of someone who, in all likelihood, we never met before and will never meet.

You are not going to budge, I see.

From where I sit. You didn't know the level to which you would be addicted before you made your "choice" to try tobacco. There is no way you knew. Non nicotine addicts don't understand. Obviously you chose to try it. You didn't choose this addiction. Why on earth would anyone choose this addiction? People choose to quit all the time. But most fail because they can't overcome the addiction. To me addiction is not a choice, it is an undermined assault.

If you want to continue criticizing KTC for aspects that you perceive to be "cult-like" then feel free. It only makes you look like kind of like a passive-aggressive douche nozzle. I feel like you're afraid that you are abandoning your political philosophy if you admit that the mass of nicotine addicts in this country/world do not have a choice when it comes to this addiction. Tobacco is cultural and it's usage starts at an early age in many areas. At an age when educated choices are not made. Most people are not university professors such as yourself. Most people don't read. Most people live day to day.

Also, there is a huge difference between a trophy tin and an emergency can. The guy we conversed about earlier, on another thread, had an emergency can, and then lied about disposing it. Major bullshit, and I hope you see why I would have a problem with that. Nicotine addicts need wake up calls. If they choose to air their their thoughts on KTC, then they are subject to the responses they receive. I do prefer constructive criticism and good manners. But holding to the belief that distancing one's self from reminders of tobacco, especially early in the quit, does not constitute a cult mentality. We KILL the can here, we don't save cans for trophies or emergencies. We fucking KILL it. Hence the name.

I've enjoyed the discussion thus far.

Per the notion on tobacco being cultural: that is not necessarily the case. Dipping is not part of NYC culture AT ALL, and here I stand before you- someone born and raised in Brooklyn, who started dipping at 25, long after undergrad and grad school. That's more than enough years of schooling under my belt to know what's good for me and what's bad for me. And certainly no cultural pressures to speak of, being a city boy and all.

Per the notion of choice: what do you say to all those people who choose to never use a tobacco product? How were they able to escape the brainwashing of so-called "aggressive marketing" and "assault" by big tobacco?

If you think that big tobacco is not aggressively marketing their product then you are simply mistaken.

Sorry to butt into this 2 person conversation. FKS - 75 days. That's strong. I see you hitting the hall and bolting. Prove me wrong. Hope you stay quit, seriously.

[Grizzlyhasclaws]

As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).

Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.

I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.

My issues with your statement above:

#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.

#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.

#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.

I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.

P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.

1. Automatically linking libertarianism with being "seriously pro big tobacco" reveals your inherent misunderstanding of the philosophy of libertarianism.

We are all responsible for our own actions, so yes, tobacco IS a personal choice. That is not a ridiculous belief, as you claim. No one put a gun to my head when I took my first dip. As an individual with free will, I make conscious lifestyle choices, fully aware of all consequences. Which is why I am now quit.

Large sugary drinks were nearly banned here in NYC, because the state believes it gets to decide what is healthy and unhealthy. Where do we draw the line? These are the big-picture questions with which libertarians have real issues. Take big tobacco to task for marketing to children, ban "fun" flavors of dip (which is NYC law), and even require vendors to remove all tobacco products from being publicly visible. Fine. But to completely ban a substance because the state is looking out for your personal health? On that I call bull shit. Paternalist bull shit, to be more precise. Let me make my own INDIVIDUAL decisions, both bad and good.

2. There are definitely online cult-like qualities exhibited on KTC in my opinion. I know I am not the first person to voice this on here. And yes, I have studied cult movements in relation to sociology and political science (I am university professor). One of the hallmark qualities of a cult is the admonishing of anyone with ideas that don't fit within the running ideology. I have seen KTC members do this to noobies with trophy cans (empties). It's as though no one can acknowledge that a trophy can might help better motivate an individual in their quit. So instead of having a real dialogue, you run them off the site. Doesn't really jive with the whole "brotherhood" line being peddled.

3. I have numbers with other quitters, they know who they are. Have not met other quitters in person due to work and the fact that there are very few active NYC-based quitters. Also, used chat early on but haven't since due to work.

IMO, my viewpoint of KTC having cult-like aspects does not help nor hinder my quit. It is simply an observation. Now, I do think the site could improve as a whole if members stopped running newbies off for having trophy cans. You want to call someone out for being dishonorable? No problem with that- when it comes to caving. But a trophy can being dishonorable? REALLY?

But for me personally, the culty aspects really makes no difference. Again, just a simple observation. KTC serves its purposes, which is keeping me accountable in my quit.

Whatever. Just chug the koolaid and make this quit last forever. Quit being so righteous.

Big Tobacco is pure evil.

Funny you should mention "chugging the kool-aid" in a discussion on the cult side of KTC. LOL.

I meant it to be funny (or ironic). I went to college. Tobacco companies are targeting children. It's not a choice. It's a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government. It is pure evil and definitely not a choice.

"It is a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government."

So is alcohol. But there are those who can enjoy a beer every now and then, and there are those who are abusive alcoholics.

To suggest that we have no choice is truly playing the victim card. I made my choice to dip- and then I made my choice to quit.

To suggest that we have no choice also diminishes the efforts of all those people who have refused to use tobacco in any form, ever. They had a choice, and they made the right choice from the beginning.

Tobacco is the leading cause of preventable death in the world. Evil people are expanding their fortunes from killing you and your children. It is as addictive as heroin, meth, and crack.

I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression. Until you see it as an act of aggression designed to steal time and money from people then we are going to disagree. If you see it for what it is it will fall right in line with your political philosophy.

"I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression."

I truly do not. It is actually one of the more restrictive markets, these days at least.

In the debate over personal choice versus victims of aggressive marketing, what more evidence do you need when a product you're trying to sell is mandated to have a label on it which says quite clearly in black and white that THIS PRODUCT WILL KILL YOU.

Sounds like you've made your choice!

Do you have kids? Do you remember the kids dipping/smoking in school?

I'm 28 with a 6-month old boy.

Tobacco marketing and advertising has been the subject of very strict legislation in recent years. It's not the same playing field as it was decades ago. So let's not kid ourselves. Before I started my quit, I was well aware of the health issues, the carcinogens, and the BIG BLACK LABEL reminding me that I will die if I opened the tin.

Spare me the big bad wolf of aggressive tobacco marketing. Let's talk today, let's talk 2014. I see more anti-tobacco advertising than anything else!

In addition to the marketing aspect, there is legislation on the table here in NYC where tobacco products cannot even be visible in the store. It must be stored under the counter. You also have to be 21 (not 18) in NYC to buy tobacco.

Legislators, public health agencies, and non-profits are doing more than ever to combat tobacco use in all forms. I see zero aggressive marketing- just plenty of people choosing to ignore the warnings because they wanna get a nice buzz. It's a design flaw in humanity- to only see the short-term gains and ignore the long-term consequences.

It literally takes one or two cigarettes/dips to get a person hooked. Read the science of nicotine addiction. The first cigarettes or chews that a kid has are not from a pack he bought at the gas station. He either stole them from his parents or got them from a friend. The shit is designed (nicotine levels are regulated exactly in each dose by the multi-billion dollar manufacturer) to deliver a punch that will trigger addiction at a very high rate.

Do a little research into how these tobacco companies do business in other parts of the world where advertising regulations are unheard of, and where product warning labels are not required.

You can get this poison on any street corner and if you're addicted it takes 20 years off of your life. You need to understand that we ARE being assaulted by this industry with aggression. Big tobacco is killing millions every year for profit. That is not freedom my friend. How hard have you fought for your freedom these first few months? What if you didn't have KTC to keep you accountable? Most people are not successful quitting. It's because at the point of addiction it is no longer a personal choice. The addicts are enslaved by a product designed to enslave them, steal their money, and kill them early. The shit sells itself in middle school parking lots. No marketing is needed. It's cheap. It's a fix. It's a nasty addiction.

My choice is that I will remain free by any means necessary. A huge part of my quit and a lot of others that I know here is their hatred for big tobacco. I haven't gotten into the discussion of whether or not nicotine addiction is a personal choice before. So I do appreciate you sharing your viewpoint. But I wholeheartedly disagree. Tobacco companies are assaulting the world's population, plain and simple. For us here at KTC, due to it's wonderful resources, we are educated to make the choice to be free. We have to fight to be free. But for most people out there it is not a choice. Not a choice at all.

EDIT - the warning labels didn't cause me to make a choice in the least.

I know all about the science behind maximizing addictive chemicals to create lifetime buyers of tobacco.

I knew it before I started dipping. That still didn't stop me. Because I made (erroneous as it were) my OWN choice to try it anyways. I CHOSE to assume that, somehow, my own body chemistry was somehow different that the rest of humanity. No tobacco company sold me on that idea. Our own fallacies as human beings are responsible for that. And we can only chalk that up to personal choice.

It's good to see different perspectives. But for me, when it comes to dip, I don't blame anyone but myself for getting addicted. Big tobacco didn't force me to do it. I did it just because.

On the other hand, I still will continue to call out the cult-like aspects exhibited on KTC. I mentioned in another thread about someone who came here and spoke of a trophy tin. Needless to say, he left the site because of the holier than thou attitude he received as a result.

I see nothing wrong with a trophy tin. If that's what keeps you quit, then fine. By any means necessary. There was another guy talking about turning his collection of empty tins into a pool table or something. I say, go for it.

I must follow 50 instagram accounts of individuals celebrating dip life, posting videos of packing enormous lips. Don't know why I do it. But in some weird way, it has contributed to my quit.

I await the next "veteran" to come on here and play pseudo-psychologist, and tell me to get off the site because that type of behavior will lead to a crave and that is not tolerated here.

Let's not all try to play psychologist and assume we understand the inner-workings of the behavior patterns of someone who, in all likelihood, we never met before and will never meet.

You are not going to budge, I see.

From where I sit. You didn't know the level to which you would be addicted before you made your "choice" to try tobacco. There is no way you knew. Non nicotine addicts don't understand. Obviously you chose to try it. You didn't choose this addiction. Why on earth would anyone choose this addiction? People choose to quit all the time. But most fail because they can't overcome the addiction. To me addiction is not a choice, it is an undermined assault.

If you want to continue criticizing KTC for aspects that you perceive to be "cult-like" then feel free. It only makes you look like kind of like a passive-aggressive douche nozzle. I feel like you're afraid that you are abandoning your political philosophy if you admit that the mass of nicotine addicts in this country/world do not have a choice when it comes to this addiction. Tobacco is cultural and it's usage starts at an early age in many areas. At an age when educated choices are not made. Most people are not university professors such as yourself. Most people don't read. Most people live day to day.

Also, there is a huge difference between a trophy tin and an emergency can. The guy we conversed about earlier, on another thread, had an emergency can, and then lied about disposing it. Major bullshit, and I hope you see why I would have a problem with that. Nicotine addicts need wake up calls. If they choose to air their their thoughts on KTC, then they are subject to the responses they receive. I do prefer constructive criticism and good manners. But holding to the belief that distancing one's self from reminders of tobacco, especially early in the quit, does not constitute a cult mentality. We KILL the can here, we don't save cans for trophies or emergencies. We fucking KILL it. Hence the name.

I've enjoyed the discussion thus far.

Per the notion on tobacco being cultural: that is not necessarily the case. Dipping is not part of NYC culture AT ALL, and here I stand before you- someone born and raised in Brooklyn, who started dipping at 25, long after undergrad and grad school. That's more than enough years of schooling under my belt to know what's good for me and what's bad for me. And certainly no cultural pressures to speak of, being a city boy and all.

Per the notion of choice: what do you say to all those people who choose to never use a tobacco product? How were they able to escape the brainwashing of so-called "aggressive marketing" and "assault" by big tobacco?

If you think that big tobacco is not aggressively marketing their product then you are simply mistaken.

[FkSkoal]

As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).

Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.

I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.

My issues with your statement above:

#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.

#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.

#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.

I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.

P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.

1. Automatically linking libertarianism with being "seriously pro big tobacco" reveals your inherent misunderstanding of the philosophy of libertarianism.

We are all responsible for our own actions, so yes, tobacco IS a personal choice. That is not a ridiculous belief, as you claim. No one put a gun to my head when I took my first dip. As an individual with free will, I make conscious lifestyle choices, fully aware of all consequences. Which is why I am now quit.

Large sugary drinks were nearly banned here in NYC, because the state believes it gets to decide what is healthy and unhealthy. Where do we draw the line? These are the big-picture questions with which libertarians have real issues. Take big tobacco to task for marketing to children, ban "fun" flavors of dip (which is NYC law), and even require vendors to remove all tobacco products from being publicly visible. Fine. But to completely ban a substance because the state is looking out for your personal health? On that I call bull shit. Paternalist bull shit, to be more precise. Let me make my own INDIVIDUAL decisions, both bad and good.

2. There are definitely online cult-like qualities exhibited on KTC in my opinion. I know I am not the first person to voice this on here. And yes, I have studied cult movements in relation to sociology and political science (I am university professor). One of the hallmark qualities of a cult is the admonishing of anyone with ideas that don't fit within the running ideology. I have seen KTC members do this to noobies with trophy cans (empties). It's as though no one can acknowledge that a trophy can might help better motivate an individual in their quit. So instead of having a real dialogue, you run them off the site. Doesn't really jive with the whole "brotherhood" line being peddled.

3. I have numbers with other quitters, they know who they are. Have not met other quitters in person due to work and the fact that there are very few active NYC-based quitters. Also, used chat early on but haven't since due to work.

IMO, my viewpoint of KTC having cult-like aspects does not help nor hinder my quit. It is simply an observation. Now, I do think the site could improve as a whole if members stopped running newbies off for having trophy cans. You want to call someone out for being dishonorable? No problem with that- when it comes to caving. But a trophy can being dishonorable? REALLY?

But for me personally, the culty aspects really makes no difference. Again, just a simple observation. KTC serves its purposes, which is keeping me accountable in my quit.

Whatever. Just chug the koolaid and make this quit last forever. Quit being so righteous.

Big Tobacco is pure evil.

Funny you should mention "chugging the kool-aid" in a discussion on the cult side of KTC. LOL.

I meant it to be funny (or ironic). I went to college. Tobacco companies are targeting children. It's not a choice. It's a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government. It is pure evil and definitely not a choice.

"It is a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government."

So is alcohol. But there are those who can enjoy a beer every now and then, and there are those who are abusive alcoholics.

To suggest that we have no choice is truly playing the victim card. I made my choice to dip- and then I made my choice to quit.

To suggest that we have no choice also diminishes the efforts of all those people who have refused to use tobacco in any form, ever. They had a choice, and they made the right choice from the beginning.

Tobacco is the leading cause of preventable death in the world. Evil people are expanding their fortunes from killing you and your children. It is as addictive as heroin, meth, and crack.

I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression. Until you see it as an act of aggression designed to steal time and money from people then we are going to disagree. If you see it for what it is it will fall right in line with your political philosophy.

"I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression."

I truly do not. It is actually one of the more restrictive markets, these days at least.

In the debate over personal choice versus victims of aggressive marketing, what more evidence do you need when a product you're trying to sell is mandated to have a label on it which says quite clearly in black and white that THIS PRODUCT WILL KILL YOU.

Sounds like you've made your choice!

Do you have kids? Do you remember the kids dipping/smoking in school?

I'm 28 with a 6-month old boy.

Tobacco marketing and advertising has been the subject of very strict legislation in recent years. It's not the same playing field as it was decades ago. So let's not kid ourselves. Before I started my quit, I was well aware of the health issues, the carcinogens, and the BIG BLACK LABEL reminding me that I will die if I opened the tin.

Spare me the big bad wolf of aggressive tobacco marketing. Let's talk today, let's talk 2014. I see more anti-tobacco advertising than anything else!

In addition to the marketing aspect, there is legislation on the table here in NYC where tobacco products cannot even be visible in the store. It must be stored under the counter. You also have to be 21 (not 18) in NYC to buy tobacco.

Legislators, public health agencies, and non-profits are doing more than ever to combat tobacco use in all forms. I see zero aggressive marketing- just plenty of people choosing to ignore the warnings because they wanna get a nice buzz. It's a design flaw in humanity- to only see the short-term gains and ignore the long-term consequences.

It literally takes one or two cigarettes/dips to get a person hooked. Read the science of nicotine addiction. The first cigarettes or chews that a kid has are not from a pack he bought at the gas station. He either stole them from his parents or got them from a friend. The shit is designed (nicotine levels are regulated exactly in each dose by the multi-billion dollar manufacturer) to deliver a punch that will trigger addiction at a very high rate.

Do a little research into how these tobacco companies do business in other parts of the world where advertising regulations are unheard of, and where product warning labels are not required.

You can get this poison on any street corner and if you're addicted it takes 20 years off of your life. You need to understand that we ARE being assaulted by this industry with aggression. Big tobacco is killing millions every year for profit. That is not freedom my friend. How hard have you fought for your freedom these first few months? What if you didn't have KTC to keep you accountable? Most people are not successful quitting. It's because at the point of addiction it is no longer a personal choice. The addicts are enslaved by a product designed to enslave them, steal their money, and kill them early. The shit sells itself in middle school parking lots. No marketing is needed. It's cheap. It's a fix. It's a nasty addiction.

My choice is that I will remain free by any means necessary. A huge part of my quit and a lot of others that I know here is their hatred for big tobacco. I haven't gotten into the discussion of whether or not nicotine addiction is a personal choice before. So I do appreciate you sharing your viewpoint. But I wholeheartedly disagree. Tobacco companies are assaulting the world's population, plain and simple. For us here at KTC, due to it's wonderful resources, we are educated to make the choice to be free. We have to fight to be free. But for most people out there it is not a choice. Not a choice at all.

EDIT - the warning labels didn't cause me to make a choice in the least.

I know all about the science behind maximizing addictive chemicals to create lifetime buyers of tobacco.

I knew it before I started dipping. That still didn't stop me. Because I made (erroneous as it were) my OWN choice to try it anyways. I CHOSE to assume that, somehow, my own body chemistry was somehow different that the rest of humanity. No tobacco company sold me on that idea. Our own fallacies as human beings are responsible for that. And we can only chalk that up to personal choice.

It's good to see different perspectives. But for me, when it comes to dip, I don't blame anyone but myself for getting addicted. Big tobacco didn't force me to do it. I did it just because.

On the other hand, I still will continue to call out the cult-like aspects exhibited on KTC. I mentioned in another thread about someone who came here and spoke of a trophy tin. Needless to say, he left the site because of the holier than thou attitude he received as a result.

I see nothing wrong with a trophy tin. If that's what keeps you quit, then fine. By any means necessary. There was another guy talking about turning his collection of empty tins into a pool table or something. I say, go for it.

I must follow 50 instagram accounts of individuals celebrating dip life, posting videos of packing enormous lips. Don't know why I do it. But in some weird way, it has contributed to my quit.

I await the next "veteran" to come on here and play pseudo-psychologist, and tell me to get off the site because that type of behavior will lead to a crave and that is not tolerated here.

Let's not all try to play psychologist and assume we understand the inner-workings of the behavior patterns of someone who, in all likelihood, we never met before and will never meet.

You are not going to budge, I see.

From where I sit. You didn't know the level to which you would be addicted before you made your "choice" to try tobacco. There is no way you knew. Non nicotine addicts don't understand. Obviously you chose to try it. You didn't choose this addiction. Why on earth would anyone choose this addiction? People choose to quit all the time. But most fail because they can't overcome the addiction. To me addiction is not a choice, it is an undermined assault.

If you want to continue criticizing KTC for aspects that you perceive to be "cult-like" then feel free. It only makes you look like kind of like a passive-aggressive douche nozzle. I feel like you're afraid that you are abandoning your political philosophy if you admit that the mass of nicotine addicts in this country/world do not have a choice when it comes to this addiction. Tobacco is cultural and it's usage starts at an early age in many areas. At an age when educated choices are not made. Most people are not university professors such as yourself. Most people don't read. Most people live day to day.

Also, there is a huge difference between a trophy tin and an emergency can. The guy we conversed about earlier, on another thread, had an emergency can, and then lied about disposing it. Major bullshit, and I hope you see why I would have a problem with that. Nicotine addicts need wake up calls. If they choose to air their their thoughts on KTC, then they are subject to the responses they receive. I do prefer constructive criticism and good manners. But holding to the belief that distancing one's self from reminders of tobacco, especially early in the quit, does not constitute a cult mentality. We KILL the can here, we don't save cans for trophies or emergencies. We fucking KILL it. Hence the name.

I've enjoyed the discussion thus far.

Per the notion on tobacco being cultural: that is not necessarily the case. Dipping is not part of NYC culture AT ALL, and here I stand before you- someone born and raised in Brooklyn, who started dipping at 25, long after undergrad and grad school. That's more than enough years of schooling under my belt to know what's good for me and what's bad for me. And certainly no cultural pressures to speak of, being a city boy and all.

Per the notion of choice: what do you say to all those people who choose to never use a tobacco product? How were they able to escape the brainwashing of so-called "aggressive marketing" and "assault" by big tobacco?

[Grizzlyhasclaws]

As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).

Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.

I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.

My issues with your statement above:

#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.

#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.

#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.

I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.

P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.

1. Automatically linking libertarianism with being "seriously pro big tobacco" reveals your inherent misunderstanding of the philosophy of libertarianism.

We are all responsible for our own actions, so yes, tobacco IS a personal choice. That is not a ridiculous belief, as you claim. No one put a gun to my head when I took my first dip. As an individual with free will, I make conscious lifestyle choices, fully aware of all consequences. Which is why I am now quit.

Large sugary drinks were nearly banned here in NYC, because the state believes it gets to decide what is healthy and unhealthy. Where do we draw the line? These are the big-picture questions with which libertarians have real issues. Take big tobacco to task for marketing to children, ban "fun" flavors of dip (which is NYC law), and even require vendors to remove all tobacco products from being publicly visible. Fine. But to completely ban a substance because the state is looking out for your personal health? On that I call bull shit. Paternalist bull shit, to be more precise. Let me make my own INDIVIDUAL decisions, both bad and good.

2. There are definitely online cult-like qualities exhibited on KTC in my opinion. I know I am not the first person to voice this on here. And yes, I have studied cult movements in relation to sociology and political science (I am university professor). One of the hallmark qualities of a cult is the admonishing of anyone with ideas that don't fit within the running ideology. I have seen KTC members do this to noobies with trophy cans (empties). It's as though no one can acknowledge that a trophy can might help better motivate an individual in their quit. So instead of having a real dialogue, you run them off the site. Doesn't really jive with the whole "brotherhood" line being peddled.

3. I have numbers with other quitters, they know who they are. Have not met other quitters in person due to work and the fact that there are very few active NYC-based quitters. Also, used chat early on but haven't since due to work.

IMO, my viewpoint of KTC having cult-like aspects does not help nor hinder my quit. It is simply an observation. Now, I do think the site could improve as a whole if members stopped running newbies off for having trophy cans. You want to call someone out for being dishonorable? No problem with that- when it comes to caving. But a trophy can being dishonorable? REALLY?

But for me personally, the culty aspects really makes no difference. Again, just a simple observation. KTC serves its purposes, which is keeping me accountable in my quit.

Whatever. Just chug the koolaid and make this quit last forever. Quit being so righteous.

Big Tobacco is pure evil.

Funny you should mention "chugging the kool-aid" in a discussion on the cult side of KTC. LOL.

I meant it to be funny (or ironic). I went to college. Tobacco companies are targeting children. It's not a choice. It's a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government. It is pure evil and definitely not a choice.

"It is a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government."

So is alcohol. But there are those who can enjoy a beer every now and then, and there are those who are abusive alcoholics.

To suggest that we have no choice is truly playing the victim card. I made my choice to dip- and then I made my choice to quit.

To suggest that we have no choice also diminishes the efforts of all those people who have refused to use tobacco in any form, ever. They had a choice, and they made the right choice from the beginning.

Tobacco is the leading cause of preventable death in the world. Evil people are expanding their fortunes from killing you and your children. It is as addictive as heroin, meth, and crack.

I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression. Until you see it as an act of aggression designed to steal time and money from people then we are going to disagree. If you see it for what it is it will fall right in line with your political philosophy.

"I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression."

I truly do not. It is actually one of the more restrictive markets, these days at least.

In the debate over personal choice versus victims of aggressive marketing, what more evidence do you need when a product you're trying to sell is mandated to have a label on it which says quite clearly in black and white that THIS PRODUCT WILL KILL YOU.

Sounds like you've made your choice!

Do you have kids? Do you remember the kids dipping/smoking in school?

I'm 28 with a 6-month old boy.

Tobacco marketing and advertising has been the subject of very strict legislation in recent years. It's not the same playing field as it was decades ago. So let's not kid ourselves. Before I started my quit, I was well aware of the health issues, the carcinogens, and the BIG BLACK LABEL reminding me that I will die if I opened the tin.

Spare me the big bad wolf of aggressive tobacco marketing. Let's talk today, let's talk 2014. I see more anti-tobacco advertising than anything else!

In addition to the marketing aspect, there is legislation on the table here in NYC where tobacco products cannot even be visible in the store. It must be stored under the counter. You also have to be 21 (not 18) in NYC to buy tobacco.

Legislators, public health agencies, and non-profits are doing more than ever to combat tobacco use in all forms. I see zero aggressive marketing- just plenty of people choosing to ignore the warnings because they wanna get a nice buzz. It's a design flaw in humanity- to only see the short-term gains and ignore the long-term consequences.

It literally takes one or two cigarettes/dips to get a person hooked. Read the science of nicotine addiction. The first cigarettes or chews that a kid has are not from a pack he bought at the gas station. He either stole them from his parents or got them from a friend. The shit is designed (nicotine levels are regulated exactly in each dose by the multi-billion dollar manufacturer) to deliver a punch that will trigger addiction at a very high rate.

Do a little research into how these tobacco companies do business in other parts of the world where advertising regulations are unheard of, and where product warning labels are not required.

You can get this poison on any street corner and if you're addicted it takes 20 years off of your life. You need to understand that we ARE being assaulted by this industry with aggression. Big tobacco is killing millions every year for profit. That is not freedom my friend. How hard have you fought for your freedom these first few months? What if you didn't have KTC to keep you accountable? Most people are not successful quitting. It's because at the point of addiction it is no longer a personal choice. The addicts are enslaved by a product designed to enslave them, steal their money, and kill them early. The shit sells itself in middle school parking lots. No marketing is needed. It's cheap. It's a fix. It's a nasty addiction.

My choice is that I will remain free by any means necessary. A huge part of my quit and a lot of others that I know here is their hatred for big tobacco. I haven't gotten into the discussion of whether or not nicotine addiction is a personal choice before. So I do appreciate you sharing your viewpoint. But I wholeheartedly disagree. Tobacco companies are assaulting the world's population, plain and simple. For us here at KTC, due to it's wonderful resources, we are educated to make the choice to be free. We have to fight to be free. But for most people out there it is not a choice. Not a choice at all.

EDIT - the warning labels didn't cause me to make a choice in the least.

I know all about the science behind maximizing addictive chemicals to create lifetime buyers of tobacco.

I knew it before I started dipping. That still didn't stop me. Because I made (erroneous as it were) my OWN choice to try it anyways. I CHOSE to assume that, somehow, my own body chemistry was somehow different that the rest of humanity. No tobacco company sold me on that idea. Our own fallacies as human beings are responsible for that. And we can only chalk that up to personal choice.

It's good to see different perspectives. But for me, when it comes to dip, I don't blame anyone but myself for getting addicted. Big tobacco didn't force me to do it. I did it just because.

On the other hand, I still will continue to call out the cult-like aspects exhibited on KTC. I mentioned in another thread about someone who came here and spoke of a trophy tin. Needless to say, he left the site because of the holier than thou attitude he received as a result.

I see nothing wrong with a trophy tin. If that's what keeps you quit, then fine. By any means necessary. There was another guy talking about turning his collection of empty tins into a pool table or something. I say, go for it.

I must follow 50 instagram accounts of individuals celebrating dip life, posting videos of packing enormous lips. Don't know why I do it. But in some weird way, it has contributed to my quit.

I await the next "veteran" to come on here and play pseudo-psychologist, and tell me to get off the site because that type of behavior will lead to a crave and that is not tolerated here.

Let's not all try to play psychologist and assume we understand the inner-workings of the behavior patterns of someone who, in all likelihood, we never met before and will never meet.

You are not going to budge, I see.

From where I sit. You didn't know the level to which you would be addicted before you made your "choice" to try tobacco. There is no way you knew. Non nicotine addicts don't understand. Obviously you chose to try it. You didn't choose this addiction. Why on earth would anyone choose this addiction? People choose to quit all the time. But most fail because they can't overcome the addiction. To me addiction is not a choice, it is an undermined assault.

If you want to continue criticizing KTC for aspects that you perceive to be "cult-like" then feel free. It only makes you look like kind of like a passive-aggressive douche nozzle. I feel like you're afraid that you are abandoning your political philosophy if you admit that the mass of nicotine addicts in this country/world do not have a choice when it comes to this addiction. Tobacco is cultural and it's usage starts at an early age in many areas. At an age when educated choices are not made. Most people are not university professors such as yourself. Most people don't read. Most people live day to day.

Also, there is a huge difference between a trophy tin and an emergency can. The guy we conversed about earlier, on another thread, had an emergency can, and then lied about disposing it. Major bullshit, and I hope you see why I would have a problem with that. Nicotine addicts need wake up calls. If they choose to air their their thoughts on KTC, then they are subject to the responses they receive. I do prefer constructive criticism and good manners. But holding to the belief that distancing one's self from reminders of tobacco, especially early in the quit, does not constitute a cult mentality. We KILL the can here, we don't save cans for trophies or emergencies. We fucking KILL it. Hence the name.

I've enjoyed the discussion thus far.

[FkSkoal]

As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).

Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.

I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.

My issues with your statement above:

#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.

#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.

#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.

I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.

P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.

1. Automatically linking libertarianism with being "seriously pro big tobacco" reveals your inherent misunderstanding of the philosophy of libertarianism.

We are all responsible for our own actions, so yes, tobacco IS a personal choice. That is not a ridiculous belief, as you claim. No one put a gun to my head when I took my first dip. As an individual with free will, I make conscious lifestyle choices, fully aware of all consequences. Which is why I am now quit.

Large sugary drinks were nearly banned here in NYC, because the state believes it gets to decide what is healthy and unhealthy. Where do we draw the line? These are the big-picture questions with which libertarians have real issues. Take big tobacco to task for marketing to children, ban "fun" flavors of dip (which is NYC law), and even require vendors to remove all tobacco products from being publicly visible. Fine. But to completely ban a substance because the state is looking out for your personal health? On that I call bull shit. Paternalist bull shit, to be more precise. Let me make my own INDIVIDUAL decisions, both bad and good.

2. There are definitely online cult-like qualities exhibited on KTC in my opinion. I know I am not the first person to voice this on here. And yes, I have studied cult movements in relation to sociology and political science (I am university professor). One of the hallmark qualities of a cult is the admonishing of anyone with ideas that don't fit within the running ideology. I have seen KTC members do this to noobies with trophy cans (empties). It's as though no one can acknowledge that a trophy can might help better motivate an individual in their quit. So instead of having a real dialogue, you run them off the site. Doesn't really jive with the whole "brotherhood" line being peddled.

3. I have numbers with other quitters, they know who they are. Have not met other quitters in person due to work and the fact that there are very few active NYC-based quitters. Also, used chat early on but haven't since due to work.

IMO, my viewpoint of KTC having cult-like aspects does not help nor hinder my quit. It is simply an observation. Now, I do think the site could improve as a whole if members stopped running newbies off for having trophy cans. You want to call someone out for being dishonorable? No problem with that- when it comes to caving. But a trophy can being dishonorable? REALLY?

But for me personally, the culty aspects really makes no difference. Again, just a simple observation. KTC serves its purposes, which is keeping me accountable in my quit.

Whatever. Just chug the koolaid and make this quit last forever. Quit being so righteous.

Big Tobacco is pure evil.

Funny you should mention "chugging the kool-aid" in a discussion on the cult side of KTC. LOL.

I meant it to be funny (or ironic). I went to college. Tobacco companies are targeting children. It's not a choice. It's a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government. It is pure evil and definitely not a choice.

"It is a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government."

So is alcohol. But there are those who can enjoy a beer every now and then, and there are those who are abusive alcoholics.

To suggest that we have no choice is truly playing the victim card. I made my choice to dip- and then I made my choice to quit.

To suggest that we have no choice also diminishes the efforts of all those people who have refused to use tobacco in any form, ever. They had a choice, and they made the right choice from the beginning.

Tobacco is the leading cause of preventable death in the world. Evil people are expanding their fortunes from killing you and your children. It is as addictive as heroin, meth, and crack.

I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression. Until you see it as an act of aggression designed to steal time and money from people then we are going to disagree. If you see it for what it is it will fall right in line with your political philosophy.

"I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression."

I truly do not. It is actually one of the more restrictive markets, these days at least.

In the debate over personal choice versus victims of aggressive marketing, what more evidence do you need when a product you're trying to sell is mandated to have a label on it which says quite clearly in black and white that THIS PRODUCT WILL KILL YOU.

Sounds like you've made your choice!

Do you have kids? Do you remember the kids dipping/smoking in school?

I'm 28 with a 6-month old boy.

Tobacco marketing and advertising has been the subject of very strict legislation in recent years. It's not the same playing field as it was decades ago. So let's not kid ourselves. Before I started my quit, I was well aware of the health issues, the carcinogens, and the BIG BLACK LABEL reminding me that I will die if I opened the tin.

Spare me the big bad wolf of aggressive tobacco marketing. Let's talk today, let's talk 2014. I see more anti-tobacco advertising than anything else!

In addition to the marketing aspect, there is legislation on the table here in NYC where tobacco products cannot even be visible in the store. It must be stored under the counter. You also have to be 21 (not 18) in NYC to buy tobacco.

Legislators, public health agencies, and non-profits are doing more than ever to combat tobacco use in all forms. I see zero aggressive marketing- just plenty of people choosing to ignore the warnings because they wanna get a nice buzz. It's a design flaw in humanity- to only see the short-term gains and ignore the long-term consequences.

It literally takes one or two cigarettes/dips to get a person hooked. Read the science of nicotine addiction. The first cigarettes or chews that a kid has are not from a pack he bought at the gas station. He either stole them from his parents or got them from a friend. The shit is designed (nicotine levels are regulated exactly in each dose by the multi-billion dollar manufacturer) to deliver a punch that will trigger addiction at a very high rate.

Do a little research into how these tobacco companies do business in other parts of the world where advertising regulations are unheard of, and where product warning labels are not required.

You can get this poison on any street corner and if you're addicted it takes 20 years off of your life. You need to understand that we ARE being assaulted by this industry with aggression. Big tobacco is killing millions every year for profit. That is not freedom my friend. How hard have you fought for your freedom these first few months? What if you didn't have KTC to keep you accountable? Most people are not successful quitting. It's because at the point of addiction it is no longer a personal choice. The addicts are enslaved by a product designed to enslave them, steal their money, and kill them early. The shit sells itself in middle school parking lots. No marketing is needed. It's cheap. It's a fix. It's a nasty addiction.

My choice is that I will remain free by any means necessary. A huge part of my quit and a lot of others that I know here is their hatred for big tobacco. I haven't gotten into the discussion of whether or not nicotine addiction is a personal choice before. So I do appreciate you sharing your viewpoint. But I wholeheartedly disagree. Tobacco companies are assaulting the world's population, plain and simple. For us here at KTC, due to it's wonderful resources, we are educated to make the choice to be free. We have to fight to be free. But for most people out there it is not a choice. Not a choice at all.

EDIT - the warning labels didn't cause me to make a choice in the least.

I know all about the science behind maximizing addictive chemicals to create lifetime buyers of tobacco.

I knew it before I started dipping. That still didn't stop me. Because I made (erroneous as it were) my OWN choice to try it anyways. I CHOSE to assume that, somehow, my own body chemistry was somehow different that the rest of humanity. No tobacco company sold me on that idea. Our own fallacies as human beings are responsible for that. And we can only chalk that up to personal choice.

It's good to see different perspectives. But for me, when it comes to dip, I don't blame anyone but myself for getting addicted. Big tobacco didn't force me to do it. I did it just because.

On the other hand, I still will continue to call out the cult-like aspects exhibited on KTC. I mentioned in another thread about someone who came here and spoke of a trophy tin. Needless to say, he left the site because of the holier than thou attitude he received as a result.

I see nothing wrong with a trophy tin. If that's what keeps you quit, then fine. By any means necessary. There was another guy talking about turning his collection of empty tins into a pool table or something. I say, go for it.

I must follow 50 instagram accounts of individuals celebrating dip life, posting videos of packing enormous lips. Don't know why I do it. But in some weird way, it has contributed to my quit.

I await the next "veteran" to come on here and play pseudo-psychologist, and tell me to get off the site because that type of behavior will lead to a crave and that is not tolerated here.

Let's not all try to play psychologist and assume we understand the inner-workings of the behavior patterns of someone who, in all likelihood, we never met before and will never meet.

[Grizzlyhasclaws]

As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).

Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.

I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.

My issues with your statement above:

#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.

#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.

#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.

I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.

P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.

1. Automatically linking libertarianism with being "seriously pro big tobacco" reveals your inherent misunderstanding of the philosophy of libertarianism.

We are all responsible for our own actions, so yes, tobacco IS a personal choice. That is not a ridiculous belief, as you claim. No one put a gun to my head when I took my first dip. As an individual with free will, I make conscious lifestyle choices, fully aware of all consequences. Which is why I am now quit.

Large sugary drinks were nearly banned here in NYC, because the state believes it gets to decide what is healthy and unhealthy. Where do we draw the line? These are the big-picture questions with which libertarians have real issues. Take big tobacco to task for marketing to children, ban "fun" flavors of dip (which is NYC law), and even require vendors to remove all tobacco products from being publicly visible. Fine. But to completely ban a substance because the state is looking out for your personal health? On that I call bull shit. Paternalist bull shit, to be more precise. Let me make my own INDIVIDUAL decisions, both bad and good.

2. There are definitely online cult-like qualities exhibited on KTC in my opinion. I know I am not the first person to voice this on here. And yes, I have studied cult movements in relation to sociology and political science (I am university professor). One of the hallmark qualities of a cult is the admonishing of anyone with ideas that don't fit within the running ideology. I have seen KTC members do this to noobies with trophy cans (empties). It's as though no one can acknowledge that a trophy can might help better motivate an individual in their quit. So instead of having a real dialogue, you run them off the site. Doesn't really jive with the whole "brotherhood" line being peddled.

3. I have numbers with other quitters, they know who they are. Have not met other quitters in person due to work and the fact that there are very few active NYC-based quitters. Also, used chat early on but haven't since due to work.

IMO, my viewpoint of KTC having cult-like aspects does not help nor hinder my quit. It is simply an observation. Now, I do think the site could improve as a whole if members stopped running newbies off for having trophy cans. You want to call someone out for being dishonorable? No problem with that- when it comes to caving. But a trophy can being dishonorable? REALLY?

But for me personally, the culty aspects really makes no difference. Again, just a simple observation. KTC serves its purposes, which is keeping me accountable in my quit.

Whatever. Just chug the koolaid and make this quit last forever. Quit being so righteous.

Big Tobacco is pure evil.

Funny you should mention "chugging the kool-aid" in a discussion on the cult side of KTC. LOL.

I meant it to be funny (or ironic). I went to college. Tobacco companies are targeting children. It's not a choice. It's a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government. It is pure evil and definitely not a choice.

"It is a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government."

So is alcohol. But there are those who can enjoy a beer every now and then, and there are those who are abusive alcoholics.

To suggest that we have no choice is truly playing the victim card. I made my choice to dip- and then I made my choice to quit.

To suggest that we have no choice also diminishes the efforts of all those people who have refused to use tobacco in any form, ever. They had a choice, and they made the right choice from the beginning.

Tobacco is the leading cause of preventable death in the world. Evil people are expanding their fortunes from killing you and your children. It is as addictive as heroin, meth, and crack.

I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression. Until you see it as an act of aggression designed to steal time and money from people then we are going to disagree. If you see it for what it is it will fall right in line with your political philosophy.

"I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression."

I truly do not. It is actually one of the more restrictive markets, these days at least.

In the debate over personal choice versus victims of aggressive marketing, what more evidence do you need when a product you're trying to sell is mandated to have a label on it which says quite clearly in black and white that THIS PRODUCT WILL KILL YOU.

Sounds like you've made your choice!

Do you have kids? Do you remember the kids dipping/smoking in school?

I'm 28 with a 6-month old boy.

Tobacco marketing and advertising has been the subject of very strict legislation in recent years. It's not the same playing field as it was decades ago. So let's not kid ourselves. Before I started my quit, I was well aware of the health issues, the carcinogens, and the BIG BLACK LABEL reminding me that I will die if I opened the tin.

Spare me the big bad wolf of aggressive tobacco marketing. Let's talk today, let's talk 2014. I see more anti-tobacco advertising than anything else!

In addition to the marketing aspect, there is legislation on the table here in NYC where tobacco products cannot even be visible in the store. It must be stored under the counter. You also have to be 21 (not 18) in NYC to buy tobacco.

Legislators, public health agencies, and non-profits are doing more than ever to combat tobacco use in all forms. I see zero aggressive marketing- just plenty of people choosing to ignore the warnings because they wanna get a nice buzz. It's a design flaw in humanity- to only see the short-term gains and ignore the long-term consequences.

It literally takes one or two cigarettes/dips to get a person hooked. Read the science of nicotine addiction. The first cigarettes or chews that a kid has are not from a pack he bought at the gas station. He either stole them from his parents or got them from a friend. The shit is designed (nicotine levels are regulated exactly in each dose by the multi-billion dollar manufacturer) to deliver a punch that will trigger addiction at a very high rate.

Do a little research into how these tobacco companies do business in other parts of the world where advertising regulations are unheard of, and where product warning labels are not required.

You can get this poison on any street corner and if you're addicted it takes 20 years off of your life. You need to understand that we ARE being assaulted by this industry with aggression. Big tobacco is killing millions every year for profit. That is not freedom my friend. How hard have you fought for your freedom these first few months? What if you didn't have KTC to keep you accountable? Most people are not successful quitting. It's because at the point of addiction it is no longer a personal choice. The addicts are enslaved by a product designed to enslave them, steal their money, and kill them early. The shit sells itself in middle school parking lots. No marketing is needed. It's cheap. It's a fix. It's a nasty addiction.

My choice is that I will remain free by any means necessary. A huge part of my quit and a lot of others that I know here is their hatred for big tobacco. I haven't gotten into the discussion of whether or not nicotine addiction is a personal choice before. So I do appreciate you sharing your viewpoint. But I wholeheartedly disagree. Tobacco companies are assaulting the world's population, plain and simple. For us here at KTC, due to it's wonderful resources, we are educated to make the choice to be free. We have to fight to be free. But for most people out there it is not a choice. Not a choice at all.

EDIT - the warning labels didn't cause me to make a choice in the least.

[FkSkoal]

As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).

Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.

I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.

My issues with your statement above:

#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.

#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.

#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.

I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.

P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.

1. Automatically linking libertarianism with being "seriously pro big tobacco" reveals your inherent misunderstanding of the philosophy of libertarianism.

We are all responsible for our own actions, so yes, tobacco IS a personal choice. That is not a ridiculous belief, as you claim. No one put a gun to my head when I took my first dip. As an individual with free will, I make conscious lifestyle choices, fully aware of all consequences. Which is why I am now quit.

Large sugary drinks were nearly banned here in NYC, because the state believes it gets to decide what is healthy and unhealthy. Where do we draw the line? These are the big-picture questions with which libertarians have real issues. Take big tobacco to task for marketing to children, ban "fun" flavors of dip (which is NYC law), and even require vendors to remove all tobacco products from being publicly visible. Fine. But to completely ban a substance because the state is looking out for your personal health? On that I call bull shit. Paternalist bull shit, to be more precise. Let me make my own INDIVIDUAL decisions, both bad and good.

2. There are definitely online cult-like qualities exhibited on KTC in my opinion. I know I am not the first person to voice this on here. And yes, I have studied cult movements in relation to sociology and political science (I am university professor). One of the hallmark qualities of a cult is the admonishing of anyone with ideas that don't fit within the running ideology. I have seen KTC members do this to noobies with trophy cans (empties). It's as though no one can acknowledge that a trophy can might help better motivate an individual in their quit. So instead of having a real dialogue, you run them off the site. Doesn't really jive with the whole "brotherhood" line being peddled.

3. I have numbers with other quitters, they know who they are. Have not met other quitters in person due to work and the fact that there are very few active NYC-based quitters. Also, used chat early on but haven't since due to work.

IMO, my viewpoint of KTC having cult-like aspects does not help nor hinder my quit. It is simply an observation. Now, I do think the site could improve as a whole if members stopped running newbies off for having trophy cans. You want to call someone out for being dishonorable? No problem with that- when it comes to caving. But a trophy can being dishonorable? REALLY?

But for me personally, the culty aspects really makes no difference. Again, just a simple observation. KTC serves its purposes, which is keeping me accountable in my quit.

Whatever. Just chug the koolaid and make this quit last forever. Quit being so righteous.

Big Tobacco is pure evil.

Funny you should mention "chugging the kool-aid" in a discussion on the cult side of KTC. LOL.

I meant it to be funny (or ironic). I went to college. Tobacco companies are targeting children. It's not a choice. It's a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government. It is pure evil and definitely not a choice.

"It is a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government."

So is alcohol. But there are those who can enjoy a beer every now and then, and there are those who are abusive alcoholics.

To suggest that we have no choice is truly playing the victim card. I made my choice to dip- and then I made my choice to quit.

To suggest that we have no choice also diminishes the efforts of all those people who have refused to use tobacco in any form, ever. They had a choice, and they made the right choice from the beginning.

Tobacco is the leading cause of preventable death in the world. Evil people are expanding their fortunes from killing you and your children. It is as addictive as heroin, meth, and crack.

I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression. Until you see it as an act of aggression designed to steal time and money from people then we are going to disagree. If you see it for what it is it will fall right in line with your political philosophy.

"I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression."

I truly do not. It is actually one of the more restrictive markets, these days at least.

In the debate over personal choice versus victims of aggressive marketing, what more evidence do you need when a product you're trying to sell is mandated to have a label on it which says quite clearly in black and white that THIS PRODUCT WILL KILL YOU.

Sounds like you've made your choice!

Do you have kids? Do you remember the kids dipping/smoking in school?

I'm 28 with a 6-month old boy.

Tobacco marketing and advertising has been the subject of very strict legislation in recent years. It's not the same playing field as it was decades ago. So let's not kid ourselves. Before I started my quit, I was well aware of the health issues, the carcinogens, and the BIG BLACK LABEL reminding me that I will die if I opened the tin.

Spare me the big bad wolf story of aggressive tobacco marketing. Let's talk today, let's talk 2014. I see more anti-tobacco advertising than anything else!

In addition to the marketing aspect, there is legislation on the table here in NYC where tobacco products cannot even be visible in the store. It must be stored under the counter. You also have to be 21 (not 18) in NYC to buy tobacco.

Legislators, public health agencies, and non-profits are doing more than ever to combat tobacco use in all forms. I see zero aggressive marketing- just plenty of people choosing to ignore the warnings because they wanna get a nice buzz. It's a design flaw in humanity- to only see the short-term gains and ignore the long-term consequences.

Let's not downplay the role of personal choice, personal responsibility, and individual liberties.

[Grizzlyhasclaws]

As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).

Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.

I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.

My issues with your statement above:

#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.

#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.

#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.

I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.

P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.

1. Automatically linking libertarianism with being "seriously pro big tobacco" reveals your inherent misunderstanding of the philosophy of libertarianism.

We are all responsible for our own actions, so yes, tobacco IS a personal choice. That is not a ridiculous belief, as you claim. No one put a gun to my head when I took my first dip. As an individual with free will, I make conscious lifestyle choices, fully aware of all consequences. Which is why I am now quit.

Large sugary drinks were nearly banned here in NYC, because the state believes it gets to decide what is healthy and unhealthy. Where do we draw the line? These are the big-picture questions with which libertarians have real issues. Take big tobacco to task for marketing to children, ban "fun" flavors of dip (which is NYC law), and even require vendors to remove all tobacco products from being publicly visible. Fine. But to completely ban a substance because the state is looking out for your personal health? On that I call bull shit. Paternalist bull shit, to be more precise. Let me make my own INDIVIDUAL decisions, both bad and good.

2. There are definitely online cult-like qualities exhibited on KTC in my opinion. I know I am not the first person to voice this on here. And yes, I have studied cult movements in relation to sociology and political science (I am university professor). One of the hallmark qualities of a cult is the admonishing of anyone with ideas that don't fit within the running ideology. I have seen KTC members do this to noobies with trophy cans (empties). It's as though no one can acknowledge that a trophy can might help better motivate an individual in their quit. So instead of having a real dialogue, you run them off the site. Doesn't really jive with the whole "brotherhood" line being peddled.

3. I have numbers with other quitters, they know who they are. Have not met other quitters in person due to work and the fact that there are very few active NYC-based quitters. Also, used chat early on but haven't since due to work.

IMO, my viewpoint of KTC having cult-like aspects does not help nor hinder my quit. It is simply an observation. Now, I do think the site could improve as a whole if members stopped running newbies off for having trophy cans. You want to call someone out for being dishonorable? No problem with that- when it comes to caving. But a trophy can being dishonorable? REALLY?

But for me personally, the culty aspects really makes no difference. Again, just a simple observation. KTC serves its purposes, which is keeping me accountable in my quit.

Whatever. Just chug the koolaid and make this quit last forever. Quit being so righteous.

Big Tobacco is pure evil.

Funny you should mention "chugging the kool-aid" in a discussion on the cult side of KTC. LOL.

I meant it to be funny (or ironic). I went to college. Tobacco companies are targeting children. It's not a choice. It's a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government. It is pure evil and definitely not a choice.

"It is a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government."

So is alcohol. But there are those who can enjoy a beer every now and then, and there are those who are abusive alcoholics.

To suggest that we have no choice is truly playing the victim card. I made my choice to dip- and then I made my choice to quit.

To suggest that we have no choice also diminishes the efforts of all those people who have refused to use tobacco in any form, ever. They had a choice, and they made the right choice from the beginning.

Tobacco is the leading cause of preventable death in the world. Evil people are expanding their fortunes from killing you and your children. It is as addictive as heroin, meth, and crack.

I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression. Until you see it as an act of aggression designed to steal time and money from people then we are going to disagree. If you see it for what it is it will fall right in line with your political philosophy.

"I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression."

I truly do not. It is actually one of the more restrictive markets, these days at least.

In the debate over personal choice versus victims of aggressive marketing, what more evidence do you need when a product you're trying to sell is mandated to have a label on it which says quite clearly in black and white that THIS PRODUCT WILL KILL YOU.

Sounds like you've made your choice!

Do you have kids? Do you remember the kids dipping/smoking in school?

[FkSkoal]

As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).

Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.

I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.

My issues with your statement above:

#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.

#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.

#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.

I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.

P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.

1. Automatically linking libertarianism with being "seriously pro big tobacco" reveals your inherent misunderstanding of the philosophy of libertarianism.

We are all responsible for our own actions, so yes, tobacco IS a personal choice. That is not a ridiculous belief, as you claim. No one put a gun to my head when I took my first dip. As an individual with free will, I make conscious lifestyle choices, fully aware of all consequences. Which is why I am now quit.

Large sugary drinks were nearly banned here in NYC, because the state believes it gets to decide what is healthy and unhealthy. Where do we draw the line? These are the big-picture questions with which libertarians have real issues. Take big tobacco to task for marketing to children, ban "fun" flavors of dip (which is NYC law), and even require vendors to remove all tobacco products from being publicly visible. Fine. But to completely ban a substance because the state is looking out for your personal health? On that I call bull shit. Paternalist bull shit, to be more precise. Let me make my own INDIVIDUAL decisions, both bad and good.

2. There are definitely online cult-like qualities exhibited on KTC in my opinion. I know I am not the first person to voice this on here. And yes, I have studied cult movements in relation to sociology and political science (I am university professor). One of the hallmark qualities of a cult is the admonishing of anyone with ideas that don't fit within the running ideology. I have seen KTC members do this to noobies with trophy cans (empties). It's as though no one can acknowledge that a trophy can might help better motivate an individual in their quit. So instead of having a real dialogue, you run them off the site. Doesn't really jive with the whole "brotherhood" line being peddled.

3. I have numbers with other quitters, they know who they are. Have not met other quitters in person due to work and the fact that there are very few active NYC-based quitters. Also, used chat early on but haven't since due to work.

IMO, my viewpoint of KTC having cult-like aspects does not help nor hinder my quit. It is simply an observation. Now, I do think the site could improve as a whole if members stopped running newbies off for having trophy cans. You want to call someone out for being dishonorable? No problem with that- when it comes to caving. But a trophy can being dishonorable? REALLY?

But for me personally, the culty aspects really makes no difference. Again, just a simple observation. KTC serves its purposes, which is keeping me accountable in my quit.

Whatever. Just chug the koolaid and make this quit last forever. Quit being so righteous.

Big Tobacco is pure evil.

Funny you should mention "chugging the kool-aid" in a discussion on the cult side of KTC. LOL.

I meant it to be funny (or ironic). I went to college. Tobacco companies are targeting children. It's not a choice. It's a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government. It is pure evil and definitely not a choice.

"It is a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government."

So is alcohol. But there are those who can enjoy a beer every now and then, and there are those who are abusive alcoholics.

To suggest that we have no choice is truly playing the victim card. I made my choice to dip- and then I made my choice to quit.

To suggest that we have no choice also diminishes the efforts of all those people who have refused to use tobacco in any form, ever. They had a choice, and they made the right choice from the beginning.

Tobacco is the leading cause of preventable death in the world. Evil people are expanding their fortunes from killing you and your children. It is as addictive as heroin, meth, and crack.

I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression. Until you see it as an act of aggression designed to steal time and money from people then we are going to disagree. If you see it for what it is it will fall right in line with your political philosophy.

"I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression."

I truly do not. It is actually one of the more restrictive markets, these days at least.

In the debate over personal choice versus victims of aggressive marketing, what more evidence do you need when a product you're trying to sell is mandated to have a label on it which says quite clearly in black and white that THIS PRODUCT WILL KILL YOU.

Sounds like you've made your choice!

[Grizzlyhasclaws]

As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).

Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.

I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.

My issues with your statement above:

#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.

#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.

#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.

I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.

P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.

1. Automatically linking libertarianism with being "seriously pro big tobacco" reveals your inherent misunderstanding of the philosophy of libertarianism.

We are all responsible for our own actions, so yes, tobacco IS a personal choice. That is not a ridiculous belief, as you claim. No one put a gun to my head when I took my first dip. As an individual with free will, I make conscious lifestyle choices, fully aware of all consequences. Which is why I am now quit.

Large sugary drinks were nearly banned here in NYC, because the state believes it gets to decide what is healthy and unhealthy. Where do we draw the line? These are the big-picture questions with which libertarians have real issues. Take big tobacco to task for marketing to children, ban "fun" flavors of dip (which is NYC law), and even require vendors to remove all tobacco products from being publicly visible. Fine. But to completely ban a substance because the state is looking out for your personal health? On that I call bull shit. Paternalist bull shit, to be more precise. Let me make my own INDIVIDUAL decisions, both bad and good.

2. There are definitely online cult-like qualities exhibited on KTC in my opinion. I know I am not the first person to voice this on here. And yes, I have studied cult movements in relation to sociology and political science (I am university professor). One of the hallmark qualities of a cult is the admonishing of anyone with ideas that don't fit within the running ideology. I have seen KTC members do this to noobies with trophy cans (empties). It's as though no one can acknowledge that a trophy can might help better motivate an individual in their quit. So instead of having a real dialogue, you run them off the site. Doesn't really jive with the whole "brotherhood" line being peddled.

3. I have numbers with other quitters, they know who they are. Have not met other quitters in person due to work and the fact that there are very few active NYC-based quitters. Also, used chat early on but haven't since due to work.

IMO, my viewpoint of KTC having cult-like aspects does not help nor hinder my quit. It is simply an observation. Now, I do think the site could improve as a whole if members stopped running newbies off for having trophy cans. You want to call someone out for being dishonorable? No problem with that- when it comes to caving. But a trophy can being dishonorable? REALLY?

But for me personally, the culty aspects really makes no difference. Again, just a simple observation. KTC serves its purposes, which is keeping me accountable in my quit.

Whatever. Just chug the koolaid and make this quit last forever. Quit being so righteous.

Big Tobacco is pure evil.

Funny you should mention "chugging the kool-aid" in a discussion on the cult side of KTC. LOL.

I meant it to be funny (or ironic). I went to college. Tobacco companies are targeting children. It's not a choice. It's a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government. It is pure evil and definitely not a choice.

"It is a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government."

So is alcohol. But there are those who can enjoy a beer every now and then, and there are those who are abusive alcoholics.

To suggest that we have no choice is truly playing the victim card. I made my choice to dip- and then I made my choice to quit.

To suggest that we have no choice also diminishes the efforts of all those people who have refused to use tobacco in any form, ever. They had a choice, and they made the right choice from the beginning.

Tobacco is the leading cause of preventable death in the world. Evil people are expanding their fortunes from killing you and your children. It is as addictive as heroin, meth, and crack.

I guess you don't see tobacco marketing/sales tactics as a form of aggression. Until you see it as an act of aggression designed to steal time and money from people then we are going to disagree. If you see it for what it is it will fall right in line with your political philosophy.

[FkSkoal]

As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).

Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.

I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.

My issues with your statement above:

#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.

#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.

#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.

I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.

P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.

1. Automatically linking libertarianism with being "seriously pro big tobacco" reveals your inherent misunderstanding of the philosophy of libertarianism.

We are all responsible for our own actions, so yes, tobacco IS a personal choice. That is not a ridiculous belief, as you claim. No one put a gun to my head when I took my first dip. As an individual with free will, I make conscious lifestyle choices, fully aware of all consequences. Which is why I am now quit.

Large sugary drinks were nearly banned here in NYC, because the state believes it gets to decide what is healthy and unhealthy. Where do we draw the line? These are the big-picture questions with which libertarians have real issues. Take big tobacco to task for marketing to children, ban "fun" flavors of dip (which is NYC law), and even require vendors to remove all tobacco products from being publicly visible. Fine. But to completely ban a substance because the state is looking out for your personal health? On that I call bull shit. Paternalist bull shit, to be more precise. Let me make my own INDIVIDUAL decisions, both bad and good.

2. There are definitely online cult-like qualities exhibited on KTC in my opinion. I know I am not the first person to voice this on here. And yes, I have studied cult movements in relation to sociology and political science (I am university professor). One of the hallmark qualities of a cult is the admonishing of anyone with ideas that don't fit within the running ideology. I have seen KTC members do this to noobies with trophy cans (empties). It's as though no one can acknowledge that a trophy can might help better motivate an individual in their quit. So instead of having a real dialogue, you run them off the site. Doesn't really jive with the whole "brotherhood" line being peddled.

3. I have numbers with other quitters, they know who they are. Have not met other quitters in person due to work and the fact that there are very few active NYC-based quitters. Also, used chat early on but haven't since due to work.

IMO, my viewpoint of KTC having cult-like aspects does not help nor hinder my quit. It is simply an observation. Now, I do think the site could improve as a whole if members stopped running newbies off for having trophy cans. You want to call someone out for being dishonorable? No problem with that- when it comes to caving. But a trophy can being dishonorable? REALLY?

But for me personally, the culty aspects really makes no difference. Again, just a simple observation. KTC serves its purposes, which is keeping me accountable in my quit.

Whatever. Just chug the koolaid and make this quit last forever. Quit being so righteous.

Big Tobacco is pure evil.

Funny you should mention "chugging the kool-aid" in a discussion on the cult side of KTC. LOL.

I meant it to be funny (or ironic). I went to college. Tobacco companies are targeting children. It's not a choice. It's a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government. It is pure evil and definitely not a choice.

"It is a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government."

So is alcohol. But there are those who can enjoy a beer every now and then, and there are those who are abusive alcoholics.

To suggest that we have no choice is truly playing the victim card. I made my choice to dip- and then I made my choice to quit.

To suggest that we have no choice also diminishes the efforts of all those people who have refused to use tobacco in any form, ever. They had a choice, and they made the right choice from the beginning.

[Grizzlyhasclaws]

As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).

Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.

I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.

My issues with your statement above:

#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.

#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.

#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.

I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.

P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.

1. Automatically linking libertarianism with being "seriously pro big tobacco" reveals your inherent misunderstanding of the philosophy of libertarianism.

We are all responsible for our own actions, so yes, tobacco IS a personal choice. That is not a ridiculous belief, as you claim. No one put a gun to my head when I took my first dip. As an individual with free will, I make conscious lifestyle choices, fully aware of all consequences. Which is why I am now quit.

Large sugary drinks were nearly banned here in NYC, because the state believes it gets to decide what is healthy and unhealthy. Where do we draw the line? These are the big-picture questions with which libertarians have real issues. Take big tobacco to task for marketing to children, ban "fun" flavors of dip (which is NYC law), and even require vendors to remove all tobacco products from being publicly visible. Fine. But to completely ban a substance because the state is looking out for your personal health? On that I call bull shit. Paternalist bull shit, to be more precise. Let me make my own INDIVIDUAL decisions, both bad and good.

2. There are definitely online cult-like qualities exhibited on KTC in my opinion. I know I am not the first person to voice this on here. And yes, I have studied cult movements in relation to sociology and political science (I am university professor). One of the hallmark qualities of a cult is the admonishing of anyone with ideas that don't fit within the running ideology. I have seen KTC members do this to noobies with trophy cans (empties). It's as though no one can acknowledge that a trophy can might help better motivate an individual in their quit. So instead of having a real dialogue, you run them off the site. Doesn't really jive with the whole "brotherhood" line being peddled.

3. I have numbers with other quitters, they know who they are. Have not met other quitters in person due to work and the fact that there are very few active NYC-based quitters. Also, used chat early on but haven't since due to work.

IMO, my viewpoint of KTC having cult-like aspects does not help nor hinder my quit. It is simply an observation. Now, I do think the site could improve as a whole if members stopped running newbies off for having trophy cans. You want to call someone out for being dishonorable? No problem with that- when it comes to caving. But a trophy can being dishonorable? REALLY?

But for me personally, the culty aspects really makes no difference. Again, just a simple observation. KTC serves its purposes, which is keeping me accountable in my quit.

Whatever. Just chug the koolaid and make this quit last forever. Quit being so righteous.

Big Tobacco is pure evil.

Funny you should mention "chugging the kool-aid" in a discussion on the cult side of KTC. LOL.

I meant it to be funny (or ironic). I went to college. Tobacco companies are targeting children. It's not a choice. It's a drug pushed on the public with the full backing of our government. It is pure evil and definitely not a choice.

[FkSkoal]

As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).

Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.

I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.

My issues with your statement above:

#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.

#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.

#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.

I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.

P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.

1. Automatically linking libertarianism with being "seriously pro big tobacco" reveals your inherent misunderstanding of the philosophy of libertarianism.

We are all responsible for our own actions, so yes, tobacco IS a personal choice. That is not a ridiculous belief, as you claim. No one put a gun to my head when I took my first dip. As an individual with free will, I make conscious lifestyle choices, fully aware of all consequences. Which is why I am now quit.

Large sugary drinks were nearly banned here in NYC, because the state believes it gets to decide what is healthy and unhealthy. Where do we draw the line? These are the big-picture questions with which libertarians have real issues. Take big tobacco to task for marketing to children, ban "fun" flavors of dip (which is NYC law), and even require vendors to remove all tobacco products from being publicly visible. Fine. But to completely ban a substance because the state is looking out for your personal health? On that I call bull shit. Paternalist bull shit, to be more precise. Let me make my own INDIVIDUAL decisions, both bad and good.

2. There are definitely online cult-like qualities exhibited on KTC in my opinion. I know I am not the first person to voice this on here. And yes, I have studied cult movements in relation to sociology and political science (I am university professor). One of the hallmark qualities of a cult is the admonishing of anyone with ideas that don't fit within the running ideology. I have seen KTC members do this to noobies with trophy cans (empties). It's as though no one can acknowledge that a trophy can might help better motivate an individual in their quit. So instead of having a real dialogue, you run them off the site. Doesn't really jive with the whole "brotherhood" line being peddled.

3. I have numbers with other quitters, they know who they are. Have not met other quitters in person due to work and the fact that there are very few active NYC-based quitters. Also, used chat early on but haven't since due to work.

IMO, my viewpoint of KTC having cult-like aspects does not help nor hinder my quit. It is simply an observation. Now, I do think the site could improve as a whole if members stopped running newbies off for having trophy cans. You want to call someone out for being dishonorable? No problem with that- when it comes to caving. But a trophy can being dishonorable? REALLY?

But for me personally, the culty aspects really makes no difference. Again, just a simple observation. KTC serves its purposes, which is keeping me accountable in my quit.

Whatever. Just chug the koolaid and make this quit last forever. Quit being so righteous.

Big Tobacco is pure evil.

Funny you should mention "chugging the kool-aid" in a discussion on the cult side of KTC. LOL.

[Grizzlyhasclaws]

As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).

Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.

I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.

My issues with your statement above:

#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.

#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.

#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.

I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.

P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.

1. Automatically linking libertarianism with being "seriously pro big tobacco" reveals your inherent misunderstanding of the philosophy of libertarianism.

We are all responsible for our own actions, so yes, tobacco IS a personal choice. That is not a ridiculous belief, as you claim. No one put a gun to my head when I took my first dip. As an individual with free will, I make conscious lifestyle choices, fully aware of all consequences. Which is why I am now quit.

Large sugary drinks were nearly banned here in NYC, because the state believes it gets to decide what is healthy and unhealthy. Where do we draw the line? These are the big-picture questions with which libertarians have real issues. Take big tobacco to task for marketing to children, ban "fun" flavors of dip (which is NYC law), and even require vendors to remove all tobacco products from being publicly visible. Fine. But to completely ban a substance because the state is looking out for your personal health? On that I call bull shit. Paternalist bull shit, to be more precise. Let me make my own INDIVIDUAL decisions, both bad and good.

2. There are definitely online cult-like qualities exhibited on KTC in my opinion. I know I am not the first person to voice this on here. And yes, I have studied cult movements in relation to sociology and political science (I am university professor). One of the hallmark qualities of a cult is the admonishing of anyone with ideas that don't fit within the running ideology. I have seen KTC members do this to noobies with trophy cans (empties). It's as though no one can acknowledge that a trophy can might help better motivate an individual in their quit. So instead of having a real dialogue, you run them off the site. Doesn't really jive with the whole "brotherhood" line being peddled.

3. I have numbers with other quitters, they know who they are. Have not met other quitters in person due to work and the fact that there are very few active NYC-based quitters. Also, used chat early on but haven't since due to work.

IMO, my viewpoint of KTC having cult-like aspects does not help nor hinder my quit. It is simply an observation. Now, I do think the site could improve as a whole if members stopped running newbies off for having trophy cans. You want to call someone out for being dishonorable? No problem with that- when it comes to caving. But a trophy can being dishonorable? REALLY?

But for me personally, the culty aspects really makes no difference. Again, just a simple observation. KTC serves its purposes, which is keeping me accountable in my quit.

Whatever. Just chug the koolaid and make this quit last forever. Quit being so righteous.

Big Tobacco is pure evil.

[FkSkoal]

As a libertarian, I believe in personal choice and individual freedom. I have attempted to recruit my best friend and cousin to see what KTC has to offer (minus the cult-like aspects of it).

Posting roll daily and reading and responding to new quitters' introductions are what keep me goin.

I have some issues with your words. I want you to see if you can expand your mind a bit and see the reality of the world we live and the battle that we are fighting.

My issues with your statement above:

#1. As a libertarian, are you seriously pro big tobacco company?????? By clinging to your ridiculous belief that tobacco is a personal choice, you are essentially saying it is fine for large corporations to poison people and target humans for addiction and early death.

#2. KTC is not a cult, nor even cult like. Not even close. Have you really had any real-life experience with an actual cult? This is a brotherhood of quitters united against big tobacco, the nastiest addiction known to man, and #1 preventable killer of humankind. There is honor to be had here. Embrace and join us in the fight. Don't reject our beliefs that tobacco is pure fucking evil because it fits your stubborn political views. You need to adjust your thinking and see the light. Tobacco companies are terrorists on American soil.

#3. I'm glad you're posting roll daily and reading and responding to other quitters on the board. That is fantastic. But there is so much more to be had here. Have you exchanged phone #s with other quitters? Have you met other quitters in person? Are you using chat to meet other quitters on a more personal level. We are real, not just an internet message board. We will truly save your life.

I recommend you strengthen your quit by getting past this notion of KTC having cult-like aspects. Truly embrace the brotherhood here, strengthen your accountability, drop the negative notions associated with group-think when it comes to this. And please, please see the tobacco industry for what it is. Pure fucking evil. Try to get some additional accountability built up for yourself. The message board alone doesn't give you that accountability. Too easy to slip away. You need brothers. Make some friends. I promise you it will save your life. Please see what is here and don't piss on it. KTC is real people saving each other's lives in a hardcore way by not accepting bullshit excuses for caving and lying. I'm not saying you are a bullshitter. But when someone is called out for their shit, it's simply meant to make that person be honest with their own self. That is the key here, honesty. You can't successfully quit unless you become honest. So if demanding honor from other posters is considered "cult-like", then give me another dixie cup of the red stuff.

P.S. I'm glad you are recruiting your cousin. That's outstanding.

1. Automatically linking libertarianism with being "seriously pro big tobacco" reveals your inherent misunderstanding of the philosophy of libertarianism.

We are all responsible for our own actions, so yes, tobacco IS a personal choice. That is not a ridiculous belief, as you claim. No one put a gun to my head when I took my first dip. As an individual with free will, I make conscious lifestyle choices, fully aware of all consequences. Which is why I am now quit.

Large sugary drinks were nearly banned here in NYC, because the state believes it gets to decide what is healthy and unhealthy. Where do we draw the line? These are the big-picture questions with which libertarians have real issues. Take big tobacco to task for marketing to children, ban "fun" flavors of dip (which is NYC law), and even require vendors to remove all tobacco products from being publicly visible. Fine. But to completely ban a substance because the state is looking out for your personal health? On that I call bull shit. Paternalist bull shit, to be more precise. Let me make my own INDIVIDUAL decisions, both bad and good.

2. There are definitely online cult-like qualities exhibited on KTC in my opinion. I know I am not the first person to voice this on here. And yes, I have studied cult movements in relation to sociology and political science (I am university professor). One of the hallmark qualities of a cult is the admonishing of anyone with ideas that don't fit within the running ideology. I have seen KTC members do this to noobies with trophy cans (empties). It's as though no one can acknowledge that a trophy can might help better motivate an individual in their quit. So instead of having a real dialogue, you run them off the site. Doesn't really jive with the whole "brotherhood" line being peddled.

3. I have numbers with other quitters, they know who they are. Have not met other quitters in person due to work and the fact that there are very few active NYC-based quitters. Also, used chat early on but haven't since due to work.

IMO, my viewpoint of KTC having cult-like aspects does not help nor hinder my quit. It is simply an observation. Now, I do think the site could improve as a whole if members stopped running newbies off for having trophy cans. You want to call someone out for being dishonorable? No problem with that- when it comes to caving. But a trophy can being dishonorable? REALLY?

But for me personally, the culty aspects really makes no difference. Again, just a simple observation. KTC serves its purposes, which is keeping me accountable in my quit.