I finally feeling more comfortable with my quit after 200 days but I know I'm still a weak bitch! Still consider myself a newbie. I appreciate so much the support and brotherhood of KTC. That being said I have a question that will probably cause a shit storm against me but it needs to be explained.
I've watched retreads return after caving from 100's of days of quit and others cave after only a few days of quit. Many people with visions of "magic quit" and fade away as reality sets in in the first week or two. I think we all recognize what a bitch it is to quit and as we win each day we hate seeing caves even more! I still remember my first experience seeing someone cave and how I felt about the tough love that was dealt out! "Remember that Bruce?" Lol. We also recognize the bullshit talk of addict. Pointing out and holding Every weak ass caver responsible for their actions is essential.
Now my question: "Why do some cavers get so much shit that they leave because they are left thinking that they will never be accepted by KTC again, and other cavers come back and are given a high 5 for returning." Why should a caver after 2 days be given more shit than someone that caves after 300 - 400 days or more? The first is just getting started and the seasoned quitter has tools. I think the thing that bothers me the most is that often the inequitable treatment is from mods and admins. I hope that I'm just a little skewed in my view because of a couple run-ins. I'm seriously concerned about this issue and am open to criticism and being set straight.
My two cents:
All of us are addicts and as such, have similar reactions, excuses and behaviors.
That being said, all of us come from differing stock. Meaning that yes we are all addicts but I think there are degrees of addiction. Some are extreme while others may not be so extremely addicted.
Some of us have better stamina to endure and fight while others don't.
I think that there are patterns to recognize but one caver isn't the same as another.
Maybe guidelines of how to treat a caver is good but there should be a variance of treatment tailored to the caver. Like raising kids. Motivation comes from within. How do you trigger that motivation?
This site is quit or split. Our response to cavers should get them committed to the plan or out and no longer detractor.
We want everyone to quit for life but not everyone will. If shitty treatment or encouraging treatment is needed....go with your gut if your intention is to get them to make a promise to quit. If they get offended, probably wanted an excuse to dip.
I can't speak for other mods/admins so I'll speak for ol Chewie...
For me it comes down to investment. When someone comes here, "tries" and fails, you can ALMOST give them a pass (or at the very least give them a wee bit of sympathy) cause they don't REALLY understand the system or what they're fighting against.
When a long time quitter caves, or worse yet, caves MULTIPLE times, this really pisses me off. Cause theoretically, they KNOW the system, KNOW what they're up against and have essentially said fuck it.
Don't get me wrong, I get pissed at each and every cave, but folks who think "they can have just one" or "think they've got it beat" after a couple of hundred (or thousand) days REALLY piss me off.
Not only that, but when I've personally invested in a quitter (shared phone number, talked on the phone, texted, emailed, PMd, etc.) it really hurts when they fail. I take it personally, and as such, when/if they come back I REALLY let them have it. I'm guessing it's similar with other mods/admins. So what you're seeing in public (the bashing) may just be PART of the story. You haven't seen the blood, sweat and tears that mod/admin has put into a fellow quitter. You haven't seen the heartache that mod/admin has felt when his brother let him down.
Or maybe the mods admins are just assholes... * shrugs *
When I see a stopper fail after a couple hundred days, it is almost ALWAYS because they had the tools, knew how to use them, and chose not to. They should already "get" that this is life and death. I tend not to bust their balls as much because they still have those tools, and it is up to them to use them or not. I still demand accountability and self examination, and will call them on BS, but they already have the tools. And, unless they were in my quit group, their brothers typically are crucifying them behind the scenes.
Its different when someone caves after a couple days. They may have the tools, but they most likely DO NOT know how to use them or how powerful they can be in this battle. Call it tough love or trial by fire, but they need to learn that it is a life and death battle. They need to understand that they are ADDICTS to poison, and their addiction will not "go away." They must fight daily to keep it at bay. They must have a plan on how to keep it away, and a backup plan when it all goes to hell.
This is me, speaking for me. And yes, I am an asshole.
I have never seen anyone get a "high five" when they come back. Everyone gets ripped and to what extent depends on how they react to the initial ass chewing they receive. If someone takes their ass ripping for what it is and realize everyone is trying to save their life then the commotion tends to go away quickly and we all get back to quitting. Cavers must accept what they did, not try to make excuses, show they want to follow the rules, and give a plan how to keep it from happening again.
The worst ass rippings I have seen come from the guys who try to defend why they failed, "their situation required it" and "we really need to understand it from their perspective" and typically the guys that fight the hardest to prove we are wrong are the newer people. The guys with hundreds of days know what they did was wrong and for the most part do not try to argue as they have been around the site long enough to know the futility of making such arguments.
This site cannot and will not ever accpept a reason to go back to using. Whatever any addict can come up with to try and justify caving will not be acceptable and the harder they fight to prove themselves right the worse the backlash from the community.
I tend to try and not be an ass but I will defend this site when the methods or the members are questioned.
STAY QUIT
Greg
Wt,
In my opinion:
Sometimes people do get off easier than they should. Once in a while, perhaps, the tough love goes a bit too far. We are an active forum with a diverse set of personalities, so some disparity in treatment is bound to occur... That said, there are often valid reasons to use different approaches with quitters:
Often the attitude that someone comes back with plays a large part in how they are treated. People who return with an attitude of humility and penitence are usually quickly accepted back. There is nothing to gain by giving them a dose of "tough love". They know the mistakes they made, and we trust that they are going to learn from them and stay quit. (Sometimes it doesn't work out that way, though).
Then there is the person that comes back and tries to give an excuse for their cave. They need to get it through their gourd that THERE IS NO ACCEPTABLE REASON. That requires a forceful approach.
Then there are those that try to sneak in and throw up a day 1 with no explanation. They piss me off. It is obvious to me that they did not learn squat from their mistakes and are just going to stink the place up with weak bullshit until they cave again. For these folks, they need to acknowledge their mistakes before they should ever be accepted- and that often takes a great deal of "tough love". Most of the time, you can't get them to where they need to be mentally.
Now, as for the new quitter that fails- this quitter needs the type of tough love that forces them to face the fact that they are responsible for their success. They are also responsible for their failure. If there is any "addict think", wish, hope or try, it needs to be flushed out, pronto. We need to know if they are quitting for themselves, if they have any trophy cans,,, etc. Of course when we grill them, some will get pissed. Personally, I think that them getting pissed off is a good thing. Get pissed at me by all means. Then PROVE ME WRONG. It is a technique that I have seen work more than once.
As far as the person that leaves because they feel that they were treated too harshly... Personally, I think most, if not all, of them would have left, anyway. The type of accountability demanded here is not for everybody- but it sure works for many. The others will have to find their own way, or return when they decide they will not be deterred in their quest for quit.
