Stuff I'm right about

[Coach Steve]

I'll get washboard abs while masturbating if I learn the secrets in new CDrom I can purchase for only 3 easy payments.

Zam, making me laugh lessons my stubbornness. I have thought about this discussion for a couple days.

I am quit. It is my fault and I chose to quit. I am to blame. However, I blame kTC for educating me, I blame my family, friends and kTC brotherhood for support and demanding more from me than I thought was in me.

I am an addict. I am to blame and it is my fault. I chose to dip. I would like to also recognize and blame UST for leading me down a path of disgrace. I blame them for not giving a shit about me as a customer and must recognize them for creating an addict for a customer. They were like Draco to appolo creed....if he dies...he dies.

What I realized is that we are both semi right. To be fully right, we both have to acknowledge that all parties are to blame.

Use whatever motivates you Mark, we all vary somewhat in that. UST certainly has done no one any favors save their shareholders and CEOs.
I will second what Zam says, many large corporations that make products you use every day do not care at all about an individual consumer. More of them than UST have poisoned citizens purposely. They all do it for the same reason, because it is profitable and they can get away with it.
I agree Sam, the concepts of individual vs peer accountability as well as today vs forever are difficult to talk about head on. We tend to think they are diametrically opposed, but they seem to coincide well for me. Forever is the purpose, today is the practice.

I

Blame

All

Of

You

For

Me

Being

qUIT lIKE fUCK

p.s. fUCK uST, fUCK cANCER, pOST rOLL, sTAY qUIT

[T-Cell]

I'll get washboard abs while masturbating if I learn the secrets in new CDrom I can purchase for only 3 easy payments.

Zam, making me laugh lessons my stubbornness. I have thought about this discussion for a couple days.

I am quit. It is my fault and I chose to quit. I am to blame. However, I blame kTC for educating me, I blame my family, friends and kTC brotherhood for support and demanding more from me than I thought was in me.

I am an addict. I am to blame and it is my fault. I chose to dip. I would like to also recognize and blame UST for leading me down a path of disgrace. I blame them for not giving a shit about me as a customer and must recognize them for creating an addict for a customer. They were like Draco to appolo creed....if he dies...he dies.

What I realized is that we are both semi right. To be fully right, we both have to acknowledge that all parties are to blame.

Use whatever motivates you Mark, we all vary somewhat in that. UST certainly has done no one any favors save their shareholders and CEOs.
I will second what Zam says, many large corporations that make products you use every day do not care at all about an individual consumer. More of them than UST have poisoned citizens purposely. They all do it for the same reason, because it is profitable and they can get away with it.
I agree Sam, the concepts of individual vs peer accountability as well as today vs forever are difficult to talk about head on. We tend to think they are diametrically opposed, but they seem to coincide well for me. Forever is the purpose, today is the practice.

[Mthomas3824]

I'll get washboard abs while masturbating if I learn the secrets in new CDrom I can purchase for only 3 easy payments.

Zam, making me laugh lessons my stubbornness. I have thought about this discussion for a couple days.

I am quit. It is my fault and I chose to quit. I am to blame. However, I blame kTC for educating me, I blame my family, friends and kTC brotherhood for support and demanding more from me than I thought was in me.

I am an addict. I am to blame and it is my fault. I chose to dip. I would like to also recognize and blame UST for leading me down a path of disgrace. I blame them for not giving a shit about me as a customer and must recognize them for creating an addict for a customer. They were like Draco to appolo creed....if he dies...he dies.

What I realized is that we are both semi right. To be fully right, we both have to acknowledge that all parties are to blame.

[zam]

Big Tobacco sets traps and plants landmines to get your addicted ass to cave.  I see through their lies and deceit.  I hate them and fight them.  That's what keeps me quit and always on guard.  They have the advantage because we are addicts.  Doesn't mean they will win.  Just know their game!  If full 100% ownership keeps you quit.  Great!  For me 100% hatred of those killers keeps me quit. 

I am just glad that I quit with you zam, Eric, rgross, coachsteve and KTC.  We all say, "Fuck Tobacco".  I am Quit!

Whom ever Intro this is, I apologize for hijacking, I will go back and poof my posts so that it isn't so lengthy.

Your post are fine with me. It's my thread. Discussion is why I post stuff here.

Good discussion, I'll hijack for a second here Zam...
I align more with your thinking on this. While I have no love loss for UST, they are figuratively dead to me. They get no more of my money, time or energy. Tobacco is simply off the table as any option now, it is part of my past only. If I take full responsibility for chewing, I can take full responsiblity for staying quit.
One of the things that makes this site work well is the group accountability, the social interaction with other quitters. I think we all need those things when we begin our quits. Some will need them forever. But ultimately I think if you are only quitting because of KTC brothers/peer re-inforcement you will eventually cave because you haven't reached 100% accountability to yourself.
Man up and remove it as an option in your life. If necessary, change your lifestyle, your other habits/addictions, even your friends. Hold yourself accountable first and foremost. Be the master of yourself. At some point, personal accountability should replace or at least augment peer accountability.

Again, my advocacy for full individual responsibility is NOT linked the moral/legal issues of marketing nicotine.     

Tony, I obviously agree with what you are saying, to some extent.  However, your point is certainly easily and often misunderstood by the newest of quitters. I think the fear of this "misunderstanding"shades the debate about responsibility.

Mark, when evaluating life decisions I try to take the world as it is, not how I wish it to be.  Loan sharks will attempt to take advantage of my ignorance.  The Bernie Madoffs will always be there to take advantage of my laziness and greed.    Capital One tells me how much better life will be if I charge on their card.  Harrah's slots will make me rich and good looking.   Even if you don't have a pot to piss in, you simply MUST get the Dish-700 package, now only 29.99*  for the first month!  I'll get washboard abs while masturbating if I learn the secrets in new CDrom I can purchase for only 3 easy payments.  I'm from the government, and I'm here to help.     And finally, yes, "Copenhagen is relaxing and puts hair on you chest, only real men can handle it."   
This stuff will never change.    I applaud your efforts against big tobacco, but unfortunately, big tobacco is just one of thousands of evils that we face every day, and will continue to face every day.  

Frankly, I would have it no other way.

[T-Cell]

Big Tobacco sets traps and plants landmines to get your addicted ass to cave.  I see through their lies and deceit.  I hate them and fight them.  That's what keeps me quit and always on guard.  They have the advantage because we are addicts.  Doesn't mean they will win.  Just know their game!  If full 100% ownership keeps you quit.  Great!  For me 100% hatred of those killers keeps me quit. 

I am just glad that I quit with you zam, Eric, rgross, coachsteve and KTC.  We all say, "Fuck Tobacco".  I am Quit!

Whom ever Intro this is, I apologize for hijacking, I will go back and poof my posts so that it isn't so lengthy.

Your post are fine with me. It's my thread. Discussion is why I post stuff here.

Good discussion, I'll hijack for a second here Zam...
I align more with your thinking on this. While I have no love loss for UST, they are figuratively dead to me. They get no more of my money, time or energy. Tobacco is simply off the table as any option now, it is part of my past only. If I take full responsibility for chewing, I can take full responsiblity for staying quit.
One of the things that makes this site work well is the group accountability, the social interaction with other quitters. I think we all need those things when we begin our quits. Some will need them forever. But ultimately I think if you are only quitting because of KTC brothers/peer re-inforcement you will eventually cave because you haven't reached 100% accountability to yourself.
Man up and remove it as an option in your life. If necessary, change your lifestyle, your other habits/addictions, even your friends. Hold yourself accountable first and foremost. Be the master of yourself. At some point, personal accountability should replace or at least augment peer accountability.

[zam]

Big Tobacco sets traps and plants landmines to get your addicted ass to cave. I see through their lies and deceit. I hate them and fight them. That's what keeps me quit and always on guard. They have the advantage because we are addicts. Doesn't mean they will win. Just know their game! If full 100% ownership keeps you quit. Great! For me 100% hatred of those killers keeps me quit.

I am just glad that I quit with you zam, Eric, rgross, coachsteve and KTC. We all say, "Fuck Tobacco". I am Quit!

Whom ever Intro this is, I apologize for hijacking, I will go back and poof my posts so that it isn't so lengthy.

Your post are fine with me. It's my thread. Discussion is why I post stuff here.

[Mthomas3824]

Big Tobacco sets traps and plants landmines to get your addicted ass to cave. I see through their lies and deceit. I hate them and fight them. That's what keeps me quit and always on guard. They have the advantage because we are addicts. Doesn't mean they will win. Just know their game! If full 100% ownership keeps you quit. Great! For me 100% hatred of those killers keeps me quit.

I am just glad that I quit with you zam, Eric, rgross, coachsteve and KTC. We all say, "Fuck Tobacco". I am Quit!

Whom ever Intro this is, I apologize for hijacking, I will go back and poof my posts so that it isn't so lengthy.

[eric71]

I wrote a long explanation an decided to edit it. 

If you want an explanation pm me and I'll send it to you. 

I blame ust and the blood of the addicted is splattered on their hands! 

I was a child when I became an addict.  Most of us were. 

I am not going to argue disagree or think about it.  I studied it, I am at war with them for the rest of my life.  My mind is made up. 

This terrorist organization is responsible for the deaths of 3million people a year. 

Anyone who sympathizes, understands or doesn't hold tobacco to account for their acts to addict children to their product is not my friend.  I don't bullshit.  In this life if you take a stand, you will have enemies. 

I stand tall and UST is my ENIMY!  Yes I chose to dip.  A little child may also chose to go to the nice mans van to see his puppies too!  I blame them for deceiving me as a child to get me addicted for life. 

Those fuckers kidnaped my spirit and my potential.  Lookup Stockholm Syndrome.  It's time to embrace the suck and see the reality of the tobacco industry.

Although I respect the thought, I believe mark's argument suffers from something like the "straw man" fallacy. At any rate, we have here, in my opinion, two separate questions: "Who is ulitimately respnsible?" And "does UST and the like cross moral, if not legal boundaries?"

My answer to the first question is ME. One good reason to take this view is that any other view puts you in a situation where your fate is not even worth wasting though on. It's pointless. The Lord gave me the responsibility to accept Him or not, so I can't imagine He didn't give me the same ability when it came to tobacco. My answer to the second question is "yes.". But they (big tobacco) are only a little worse than every billion calorie snack that plasters "LOW FAT!!" and a picture of a superhero on the wrapper. Statistically, I'll bet pushing marketing apple juice on children does as much harm overall as tobacco marketing.

And I understand what you are insinuating by saying about "became an addict as a child.". But statistics don't bear this out. Unless you consider 20.1 years old a child.

Just for the record, I am NOT defending big tobacco. And yes, if you have the longer version, PM it to me. Or post it hear, its OK with me. I'm up for a good discussion. Lord knows my brain needs exercise!

If this is true, let's remove the ability of states and the feds to tax the shit out of tobacco and vacate the suits and return the billions in damages. Let's let them resume magazine, billboard, and bring back TV ads! We've wrongly persecuted and victimized that industry, users have been in control all along.

What a revelation, everyone is in control now! I'm buying tobacco stock!

Sorry for the Sarcasm, Zam, but I'm bitter about this topic.

:)

Hey guys, I get it. But my point comes back to this: if the scenario you sarcastically mock happens, am I doomed to a life of nicotine? Should I just sigh, walk down to the c-store and stop fighting the inevitable? Or do I stand up and say FUCK YOU, as KTC has reminded me is my option.

For me the only emotional part of this discussion is the exasperation I feel when someone wants to go to war with UST (which I get), but without a thought gives their cash daily to support the local nic pusher when they buy gas or groceries. .. When someone demands some lawsuit on a faceless entity but won't confront the lady in the checkout line next to them about them teaching their kids to be good future addicts.

Sigh. Deep Breath......

Horse Shit is being spoken here!

UST is not a victim. They are a predator.

Selling a product isn't always buyer beware people. Corporations have an obligation to its customers, country and common law practices. Con artists deceive and well con people into making money and they are liable when caught!

Bernie Madoff? He scammed people out of money. Is the investor to blame? With the information given by Madoff, he knowingly screwed people out of their money.

What about Fen Phen? People rushed to a miracle drug for weight loss. It caused heart valve damage. Did Wyeth-Ayerst Laboratories knowing that it caused heart valve damage still pimp its product? This drug causes ir-repairable heart damage and was removed from the market. Why, because it kills!

Lutwak wrote on September 24, 1996, “If this hurts the sales, so be it. The company has gotten away with much manipulation these past 3 years, of the public, of the press, of the FDA.” He continued to describe his frustration in an email describing the difficulties he had with fen phen and the FDA saying, “I started getting upset about this drug in ’93 or ’94 and was running into a lot of blocks from the FDA and from the drug company.”

If you were overweight and the product Fen Phen was prescribed by your doctor to cure weight and the drug company duped the FDA which mislead doctors to prescribe and preyed on your trust. Your choice to use the product was a manipulation or calculated lies.

How about Pacific Gas and Electric litigation? The case alleged contamination of drinking water with hexavalent chromium, also known as chromium (VI), in the southern California town of Hinkley. The case was settled in 1996 for US$333 million, the largest settlement ever paid in a direct action lawsuit in US history. I love the part in the movie when Erin offers them water after they swore the water was drinkable. She said, this is water you said was drinkable. I have it brought here for you to drink in this meeting. They didn't touch it. Even though they swore it was not harmful......

Master Tobacco Settlement Agreement look that up.

The heart of the question here is, do companies have an obligation to release the dangers of their product? Can a company coverup and conceal health risks and danger to save stock prices and an industry?

Common Law Doctrine that my country follows in the Judicial System tells me that they are liable for misleading coverups and knowingly putting lives at risks.

Hell these companies agree by settling for this amount of money!!!! What company would pay theses penalties if there wasn't some admission of guilt????

We can take many angles. With the education and knowledge we have, the choice is our blame. The labels have warnings and we still are free to choose. If we do so, we own it. I concur.

However, the Tobacco industry is not guiltless. They are liable for misleading, blatant coverups and denial of facts! They agreed to change their marketing practices in exchange that no individual can sue them directly now. They write a check to the Government for protection. It is dirty!

So give me all the examples of wrong doings. That doesn't take away the UST responsibility or blame for killing and destroying lives!

Common Law shows that they knowingly mislead and marketed their product to children. Mcdonald's to my knowledge never denied getting market share by marketing their product to children.

That my friends is the lie. UST wants your children to buy and use their product even though it is illegal! Don't ever cut them slack by saying we had a choice!

They are con artists after children. They have no fault???? Really?

Well fuck me then. Let the companies knowingly let carcinogens seep into drinking water. No more recalls on car's that explode or tires that blow out. Let every drug come to market and screw the buried research. I chose to take a pill. If I make 30k and a bank gives me a loan for a 500k house. I am the responsible one for them telling me that I am qualified. (That is the closest argument to us being fully responsible for our choice, however if your loan officer knowingly qualifies you without informing you that you're fucked. They have some burden too! )

So yes we chose to dip. However, our choice was made from intentional misleading information. FUCK US TOBACCO! Never sympathize with them.

They have blood spattered hands. Until they fold, they always will. They share the burden and blame for taking loved ones too early. Who else is to blame? Those who aid and promote this product. Advertising agency that will accept their filthy lucre to send out propaganda adds. The government that accepts a payout to prevent individual lawsuits. The parents who use in front of kids. Coaches and professional athletes that think they aren't role models and its a fucking individual choice!!!!

If you knew that your drinking water was contaminated and your risk to have painful tumors was a possibility, would you drink it? If I told you that my drinking water was safe would you take me at my word?

So you can't make a horse drink but if you offer tainted water for them to drink aren't you holding some fault????

I blame US Tobacco for 3 million deaths per year. I will until they fold. The only good I ever linked to tobacco was for helping heal wounds on animals. Don't even know if that is true. So without any real benefits to man, tobacco is a noxious weed and kills. They should till it in the ground and fold up shop. Until then watch their expansion into Indonesia. They aren't educated about tobacco. They are in the dark like America was 30 years ago. With little laws on pimping their product, that is where they are increasing market share!!! They aren't held to the same advertising standards.

Watch an epidemic of cancer hit Indonesia. Once they begin learning the truth about tobacco and the false propaganda by UST, are you going to say those individuals had a choice and UST is just a business????

I don't care if it is American. The UST companies are a worldwide terrorist organization. They kill 3 million people a year and it is going to increase in Indonesia!

They knowingly kill! Money is more important than your life. They will and can replace you so they aren't concerned about losing a customer. If you quit or die, they recruit 5 more to take your place. Yes their market is still children. Boys between 6th and 9th grade is their market.

Sure look the other way and say, "I chose to chew." UST would applaud you for owning the liability and responsibility of the product they sell. Also, check your figures, I think that 20.1 is not the average age starting. I think that is the average age using tobacco. Many of us here are older than 30, to balance the average, how many users are under 20?

Honestly I don't think I can change your mind and I don't think I will. However for all those that are quitting tobacco that read this, they must know that your thoughts are not the full story of blame.

BTW: I am speaking up because I couldn't be silent and let anyone assume that I agreed that I am 100% to blame for chewing tobacco.

Why do we even have laws on the books called, contributing to the delinquency of minors. If there is no culpability and we all made a choice.

I am done ranting but want it known the UST should have blame for the deaths linked to their product.

Oooooooookkaaaaaaayyyy then. I did ask for the full version.

The short version response: We disagree. Frankly, the consequences of your line of thinking frighten me. Slavery to nicotine is not the worst form of slavery.

You mean fire burns down houses? I thought the stove was to blame.

[zam]

I wrote a long explanation an decided to edit it. 

If you want an explanation pm me and I'll send it to you. 

I blame ust and the blood of the addicted is splattered on their hands! 

I was a child when I became an addict.  Most of us were. 

I am not going to argue disagree or think about it.  I studied it, I am at war with them for the rest of my life.  My mind is made up. 

This terrorist organization is responsible for the deaths of 3million people a year. 

Anyone who sympathizes, understands or doesn't hold tobacco to account for their acts to addict children to their product is not my friend.  I don't bullshit.  In this life if you take a stand, you will have enemies. 

I stand tall and UST is my ENIMY!  Yes I chose to dip.  A little child may also chose to go to the nice mans van to see his puppies too!  I blame them for deceiving me as a child to get me addicted for life. 

Those fuckers kidnaped my spirit and my potential.  Lookup Stockholm Syndrome.  It's time to embrace the suck and see the reality of the tobacco industry.

Although I respect the thought, I believe mark's argument suffers from something like the "straw man" fallacy. At any rate, we have here, in my opinion, two separate questions: "Who is ulitimately respnsible?" And "does UST and the like cross moral, if not legal boundaries?"

My answer to the first question is ME. One good reason to take this view is that any other view puts you in a situation where your fate is not even worth wasting though on. It's pointless. The Lord gave me the responsibility to accept Him or not, so I can't imagine He didn't give me the same ability when it came to tobacco. My answer to the second question is "yes.". But they (big tobacco) are only a little worse than every billion calorie snack that plasters "LOW FAT!!" and a picture of a superhero on the wrapper. Statistically, I'll bet pushing marketing apple juice on children does as much harm overall as tobacco marketing.

And I understand what you are insinuating by saying about "became an addict as a child.". But statistics don't bear this out. Unless you consider 20.1 years old a child.

Just for the record, I am NOT defending big tobacco. And yes, if you have the longer version, PM it to me. Or post it hear, its OK with me. I'm up for a good discussion. Lord knows my brain needs exercise!

If this is true, let's remove the ability of states and the feds to tax the shit out of tobacco and vacate the suits and return the billions in damages. Let's let them resume magazine, billboard, and bring back TV ads! We've wrongly persecuted and victimized that industry, users have been in control all along.

What a revelation, everyone is in control now! I'm buying tobacco stock!

Sorry for the Sarcasm, Zam, but I'm bitter about this topic.

:)

Hey guys, I get it. But my point comes back to this: if the scenario you sarcastically mock happens, am I doomed to a life of nicotine? Should I just sigh, walk down to the c-store and stop fighting the inevitable? Or do I stand up and say FUCK YOU, as KTC has reminded me is my option.

For me the only emotional part of this discussion is the exasperation I feel when someone wants to go to war with UST (which I get), but without a thought gives their cash daily to support the local nic pusher when they buy gas or groceries. .. When someone demands some lawsuit on a faceless entity but won't confront the lady in the checkout line next to them about them teaching their kids to be good future addicts.

Sigh. Deep Breath......

Horse Shit is being spoken here!

UST is not a victim. They are a predator.

Selling a product isn't always buyer beware people. Corporations have an obligation to its customers, country and common law practices. Con artists deceive and well con people into making money and they are liable when caught!

Bernie Madoff? He scammed people out of money. Is the investor to blame? With the information given by Madoff, he knowingly screwed people out of their money.

What about Fen Phen? People rushed to a miracle drug for weight loss. It caused heart valve damage. Did Wyeth-Ayerst Laboratories knowing that it caused heart valve damage still pimp its product? This drug causes ir-repairable heart damage and was removed from the market. Why, because it kills!

Lutwak wrote on September 24, 1996, “If this hurts the sales, so be it. The company has gotten away with much manipulation these past 3 years, of the public, of the press, of the FDA.” He continued to describe his frustration in an email describing the difficulties he had with fen phen and the FDA saying, “I started getting upset about this drug in ’93 or ’94 and was running into a lot of blocks from the FDA and from the drug company.”

If you were overweight and the product Fen Phen was prescribed by your doctor to cure weight and the drug company duped the FDA which mislead doctors to prescribe and preyed on your trust. Your choice to use the product was a manipulation or calculated lies.

How about Pacific Gas and Electric litigation? The case alleged contamination of drinking water with hexavalent chromium, also known as chromium (VI), in the southern California town of Hinkley. The case was settled in 1996 for US$333 million, the largest settlement ever paid in a direct action lawsuit in US history. I love the part in the movie when Erin offers them water after they swore the water was drinkable. She said, this is water you said was drinkable. I have it brought here for you to drink in this meeting. They didn't touch it. Even though they swore it was not harmful......

Master Tobacco Settlement Agreement look that up.

The heart of the question here is, do companies have an obligation to release the dangers of their product? Can a company coverup and conceal health risks and danger to save stock prices and an industry?

Common Law Doctrine that my country follows in the Judicial System tells me that they are liable for misleading coverups and knowingly putting lives at risks.

Hell these companies agree by settling for this amount of money!!!! What company would pay theses penalties if there wasn't some admission of guilt????

We can take many angles. With the education and knowledge we have, the choice is our blame. The labels have warnings and we still are free to choose. If we do so, we own it. I concur.

However, the Tobacco industry is not guiltless. They are liable for misleading, blatant coverups and denial of facts! They agreed to change their marketing practices in exchange that no individual can sue them directly now. They write a check to the Government for protection. It is dirty!

So give me all the examples of wrong doings. That doesn't take away the UST responsibility or blame for killing and destroying lives!

Common Law shows that they knowingly mislead and marketed their product to children. Mcdonald's to my knowledge never denied getting market share by marketing their product to children.

That my friends is the lie. UST wants your children to buy and use their product even though it is illegal! Don't ever cut them slack by saying we had a choice!

They are con artists after children. They have no fault???? Really?

Well fuck me then. Let the companies knowingly let carcinogens seep into drinking water. No more recalls on car's that explode or tires that blow out. Let every drug come to market and screw the buried research. I chose to take a pill. If I make 30k and a bank gives me a loan for a 500k house. I am the responsible one for them telling me that I am qualified. (That is the closest argument to us being fully responsible for our choice, however if your loan officer knowingly qualifies you without informing you that you're fucked. They have some burden too! )

So yes we chose to dip. However, our choice was made from intentional misleading information. FUCK US TOBACCO! Never sympathize with them.

They have blood spattered hands. Until they fold, they always will. They share the burden and blame for taking loved ones too early. Who else is to blame? Those who aid and promote this product. Advertising agency that will accept their filthy lucre to send out propaganda adds. The government that accepts a payout to prevent individual lawsuits. The parents who use in front of kids. Coaches and professional athletes that think they aren't role models and its a fucking individual choice!!!!

If you knew that your drinking water was contaminated and your risk to have painful tumors was a possibility, would you drink it? If I told you that my drinking water was safe would you take me at my word?

So you can't make a horse drink but if you offer tainted water for them to drink aren't you holding some fault????

I blame US Tobacco for 3 million deaths per year. I will until they fold. The only good I ever linked to tobacco was for helping heal wounds on animals. Don't even know if that is true. So without any real benefits to man, tobacco is a noxious weed and kills. They should till it in the ground and fold up shop. Until then watch their expansion into Indonesia. They aren't educated about tobacco. They are in the dark like America was 30 years ago. With little laws on pimping their product, that is where they are increasing market share!!! They aren't held to the same advertising standards.

Watch an epidemic of cancer hit Indonesia. Once they begin learning the truth about tobacco and the false propaganda by UST, are you going to say those individuals had a choice and UST is just a business????

I don't care if it is American. The UST companies are a worldwide terrorist organization. They kill 3 million people a year and it is going to increase in Indonesia!

They knowingly kill! Money is more important than your life. They will and can replace you so they aren't concerned about losing a customer. If you quit or die, they recruit 5 more to take your place. Yes their market is still children. Boys between 6th and 9th grade is their market.

Sure look the other way and say, "I chose to chew." UST would applaud you for owning the liability and responsibility of the product they sell. Also, check your figures, I think that 20.1 is not the average age starting. I think that is the average age using tobacco. Many of us here are older than 30, to balance the average, how many users are under 20?

Honestly I don't think I can change your mind and I don't think I will. However for all those that are quitting tobacco that read this, they must know that your thoughts are not the full story of blame.

BTW: I am speaking up because I couldn't be silent and let anyone assume that I agreed that I am 100% to blame for chewing tobacco.

Why do we even have laws on the books called, contributing to the delinquency of minors. If there is no culpability and we all made a choice.

I am done ranting but want it known the UST should have blame for the deaths linked to their product.

Oooooooookkaaaaaaayyyy then. I did ask for the full version.

The short version response: We disagree. Frankly, the consequences of your line of thinking frighten me. Slavery to nicotine is not the worst form of slavery.

[zam]

My final two cents:

Zam, was it really your free-will choice to quit when it took joining a ragtag website called KTC.org and banning together with a bunch of other addicts strewn across the country who could not quit on their own?

And prior to becoming the badass quitter that you are, you say you consciously decided to buy, use, and run your life around that shit for years and years and years when you probably didn't want to anymore?

Russ, if I understand your question correctly, the answer is yes, and definitely yes.

[rgross298]

I wrote a long explanation an decided to edit it. 

If you want an explanation pm me and I'll send it to you. 

I blame ust and the blood of the addicted is splattered on their hands! 

I was a child when I became an addict.  Most of us were. 

I am not going to argue disagree or think about it.  I studied it, I am at war with them for the rest of my life.  My mind is made up. 

This terrorist organization is responsible for the deaths of 3million people a year. 

Anyone who sympathizes, understands or doesn't hold tobacco to account for their acts to addict children to their product is not my friend.  I don't bullshit.  In this life if you take a stand, you will have enemies. 

I stand tall and UST is my ENIMY!  Yes I chose to dip.  A little child may also chose to go to the nice mans van to see his puppies too!  I blame them for deceiving me as a child to get me addicted for life. 

Those fuckers kidnaped my spirit and my potential.  Lookup Stockholm Syndrome.  It's time to embrace the suck and see the reality of the tobacco industry.

Although I respect the thought, I believe mark's argument suffers from something like the "straw man" fallacy. At any rate, we have here, in my opinion, two separate questions: "Who is ulitimately respnsible?" And "does UST and the like cross moral, if not legal boundaries?"

My answer to the first question is ME. One good reason to take this view is that any other view puts you in a situation where your fate is not even worth wasting though on. It's pointless. The Lord gave me the responsibility to accept Him or not, so I can't imagine He didn't give me the same ability when it came to tobacco. My answer to the second question is "yes.". But they (big tobacco) are only a little worse than every billion calorie snack that plasters "LOW FAT!!" and a picture of a superhero on the wrapper. Statistically, I'll bet pushing marketing apple juice on children does as much harm overall as tobacco marketing.

And I understand what you are insinuating by saying about "became an addict as a child.". But statistics don't bear this out. Unless you consider 20.1 years old a child.

Just for the record, I am NOT defending big tobacco. And yes, if you have the longer version, PM it to me. Or post it hear, its OK with me. I'm up for a good discussion. Lord knows my brain needs exercise!

If this is true, let's remove the ability of states and the feds to tax the shit out of tobacco and vacate the suits and return the billions in damages. Let's let them resume magazine, billboard, and bring back TV ads! We've wrongly persecuted and victimized that industry, users have been in control all along.

What a revelation, everyone is in control now! I'm buying tobacco stock!

Sorry for the Sarcasm, Zam, but I'm bitter about this topic.

:)

Hey guys, I get it. But my point comes back to this: if the scenario you sarcastically mock happens, am I doomed to a life of nicotine? Should I just sigh, walk down to the c-store and stop fighting the inevitable? Or do I stand up and say FUCK YOU, as KTC has reminded me is my option.

For me the only emotional part of this discussion is the exasperation I feel when someone wants to go to war with UST (which I get), but without a thought gives their cash daily to support the local nic pusher when they buy gas or groceries. .. When someone demands some lawsuit on a faceless entity but won't confront the lady in the checkout line next to them about them teaching their kids to be good future addicts.

Sigh. Deep Breath......

Horse Shit is being spoken here!

UST is not a victim. They are a predator.

Selling a product isn't always buyer beware people. Corporations have an obligation to its customers, country and common law practices. Con artists deceive and well con people into making money and they are liable when caught!

Bernie Madoff? He scammed people out of money. Is the investor to blame? With the information given by Madoff, he knowingly screwed people out of their money.

What about Fen Phen? People rushed to a miracle drug for weight loss. It caused heart valve damage. Did Wyeth-Ayerst Laboratories knowing that it caused heart valve damage still pimp its product? This drug causes ir-repairable heart damage and was removed from the market. Why, because it kills!

Lutwak wrote on September 24, 1996, “If this hurts the sales, so be it. The company has gotten away with much manipulation these past 3 years, of the public, of the press, of the FDA.” He continued to describe his frustration in an email describing the difficulties he had with fen phen and the FDA saying, “I started getting upset about this drug in ’93 or ’94 and was running into a lot of blocks from the FDA and from the drug company.”

If you were overweight and the product Fen Phen was prescribed by your doctor to cure weight and the drug company duped the FDA which mislead doctors to prescribe and preyed on your trust. Your choice to use the product was a manipulation or calculated lies.

How about Pacific Gas and Electric litigation? The case alleged contamination of drinking water with hexavalent chromium, also known as chromium (VI), in the southern California town of Hinkley. The case was settled in 1996 for US$333 million, the largest settlement ever paid in a direct action lawsuit in US history. I love the part in the movie when Erin offers them water after they swore the water was drinkable. She said, this is water you said was drinkable. I have it brought here for you to drink in this meeting. They didn't touch it. Even though they swore it was not harmful......

Master Tobacco Settlement Agreement look that up.

The heart of the question here is, do companies have an obligation to release the dangers of their product? Can a company coverup and conceal health risks and danger to save stock prices and an industry?

Common Law Doctrine that my country follows in the Judicial System tells me that they are liable for misleading coverups and knowingly putting lives at risks.

Hell these companies agree by settling for this amount of money!!!! What company would pay theses penalties if there wasn't some admission of guilt????

We can take many angles. With the education and knowledge we have, the choice is our blame. The labels have warnings and we still are free to choose. If we do so, we own it. I concur.

However, the Tobacco industry is not guiltless. They are liable for misleading, blatant coverups and denial of facts! They agreed to change their marketing practices in exchange that no individual can sue them directly now. They write a check to the Government for protection. It is dirty!

So give me all the examples of wrong doings. That doesn't take away the UST responsibility or blame for killing and destroying lives!

Common Law shows that they knowingly mislead and marketed their product to children. Mcdonald's to my knowledge never denied getting market share by marketing their product to children.

That my friends is the lie. UST wants your children to buy and use their product even though it is illegal! Don't ever cut them slack by saying we had a choice!

They are con artists after children. They have no fault???? Really?

Well fuck me then. Let the companies knowingly let carcinogens seep into drinking water. No more recalls on car's that explode or tires that blow out. Let every drug come to market and screw the buried research. I chose to take a pill. If I make 30k and a bank gives me a loan for a 500k house. I am the responsible one for them telling me that I am qualified. (That is the closest argument to us being fully responsible for our choice, however if your loan officer knowingly qualifies you without informing you that you're fucked. They have some burden too! )

So yes we chose to dip. However, our choice was made from intentional misleading information. FUCK US TOBACCO! Never sympathize with them.

They have blood spattered hands. Until they fold, they always will. They share the burden and blame for taking loved ones too early. Who else is to blame? Those who aid and promote this product. Advertising agency that will accept their filthy lucre to send out propaganda adds. The government that accepts a payout to prevent individual lawsuits. The parents who use in front of kids. Coaches and professional athletes that think they aren't role models and its a fucking individual choice!!!!

If you knew that your drinking water was contaminated and your risk to have painful tumors was a possibility, would you drink it? If I told you that my drinking water was safe would you take me at my word?

So you can't make a horse drink but if you offer tainted water for them to drink aren't you holding some fault????

I blame US Tobacco for 3 million deaths per year. I will until they fold. The only good I ever linked to tobacco was for helping heal wounds on animals. Don't even know if that is true. So without any real benefits to man, tobacco is a noxious weed and kills. They should till it in the ground and fold up shop. Until then watch their expansion into Indonesia. They aren't educated about tobacco. They are in the dark like America was 30 years ago. With little laws on pimping their product, that is where they are increasing market share!!! They aren't held to the same advertising standards.

Watch an epidemic of cancer hit Indonesia. Once they begin learning the truth about tobacco and the false propaganda by UST, are you going to say those individuals had a choice and UST is just a business????

I don't care if it is American. The UST companies are a worldwide terrorist organization. They kill 3 million people a year and it is going to increase in Indonesia!

They knowingly kill! Money is more important than your life. They will and can replace you so they aren't concerned about losing a customer. If you quit or die, they recruit 5 more to take your place. Yes their market is still children. Boys between 6th and 9th grade is their market.

Sure look the other way and say, "I chose to chew." UST would applaud you for owning the liability and responsibility of the product they sell. Also, check your figures, I think that 20.1 is not the average age starting. I think that is the average age using tobacco. Many of us here are older than 30, to balance the average, how many users are under 20?

Honestly I don't think I can change your mind and I don't think I will. However for all those that are quitting tobacco that read this, they must know that your thoughts are not the full story of blame.

BTW: I am speaking up because I couldn't be silent and let anyone assume that I agreed that I am 100% to blame for chewing tobacco.

Why do we even have laws on the books called, contributing to the delinquency of minors. If there is no culpability and we all made a choice.

I am done ranting but want it known the UST should have blame for the deaths linked to their product.

My final two cents:

Zam, was it really your free-will choice to quit when it took joining a ragtag website called KTC.org and banning together with a bunch of other addicts strewn across the country who could not quit on their own?

And prior to becoming the badass quitter that you are, you say you consciously decided to buy, use, and run your life around that shit for years and years and years when you probably didn't want to anymore?

[Mthomas3824]

1,2,3....Gone

[Coach Steve]

I wrote a long explanation an decided to edit it. 

If you want an explanation pm me and I'll send it to you. 

I blame ust and the blood of the addicted is splattered on their hands! 

I was a child when I became an addict.  Most of us were. 

I am not going to argue disagree or think about it.  I studied it, I am at war with them for the rest of my life.  My mind is made up. 

This terrorist organization is responsible for the deaths of 3million people a year. 

Anyone who sympathizes, understands or doesn't hold tobacco to account for their acts to addict children to their product is not my friend.  I don't bullshit.  In this life if you take a stand, you will have enemies. 

I stand tall and UST is my ENIMY!  Yes I chose to dip.  A little child may also chose to go to the nice mans van to see his puppies too!  I blame them for deceiving me as a child to get me addicted for life. 

Those fuckers kidnaped my spirit and my potential.  Lookup Stockholm Syndrome.  It's time to embrace the suck and see the reality of the tobacco industry.

Although I respect the thought, I believe mark's argument suffers from something like the "straw man" fallacy. At any rate, we have here, in my opinion, two separate questions: "Who is ulitimately respnsible?" And "does UST and the like cross moral, if not legal boundaries?"

My answer to the first question is ME. One good reason to take this view is that any other view puts you in a situation where your fate is not even worth wasting though on. It's pointless. The Lord gave me the responsibility to accept Him or not, so I can't imagine He didn't give me the same ability when it came to tobacco. My answer to the second question is "yes.". But they (big tobacco) are only a little worse than every billion calorie snack that plasters "LOW FAT!!" and a picture of a superhero on the wrapper. Statistically, I'll bet pushing marketing apple juice on children does as much harm overall as tobacco marketing.

And I understand what you are insinuating by saying about "became an addict as a child.". But statistics don't bear this out. Unless you consider 20.1 years old a child.

Just for the record, I am NOT defending big tobacco. And yes, if you have the longer version, PM it to me. Or post it hear, its OK with me. I'm up for a good discussion. Lord knows my brain needs exercise!

If this is true, let's remove the ability of states and the feds to tax the shit out of tobacco and vacate the suits and return the billions in damages. Let's let them resume magazine, billboard, and bring back TV ads! We've wrongly persecuted and victimized that industry, users have been in control all along.

What a revelation, everyone is in control now! I'm buying tobacco stock!

Sorry for the Sarcasm, Zam, but I'm bitter about this topic.

:)

Hey guys, I get it. But my point comes back to this: if the scenario you sarcastically mock happens, am I doomed to a life of nicotine? Should I just sigh, walk down to the c-store and stop fighting the inevitable? Or do I stand up and say FUCK YOU, as KTC has reminded me is my option.

For me the only emotional part of this discussion is the exasperation I feel when someone wants to go to war with UST (which I get), but without a thought gives their cash daily to support the local nic pusher when they buy gas or groceries. .. When someone demands some lawsuit on a faceless entity but won't confront the lady in the checkout line next to them about them teaching their kids to be good future addicts.

What are we even arguing about here?

I started dipping at a baseball camp when I was 15 years old. I don't blame the game of baseball for my addiction even though tobacco is prevalent in the game.

So what about the people who have never tried tobacco or never got addicted? Are these people simply immune to the evil tobacco industries attempts to hook them? Or did they make the right choice at the right time?

I blame myself. Leveling blame and hatred upon external forces does nothing to help me stay quit.

[zam]

{mental note - after the big tobacco topic dies out, post a rant about the new trend of "numbering" quitters ala June/July}

[zam]

I wrote a long explanation an decided to edit it. 

If you want an explanation pm me and I'll send it to you. 

I blame ust and the blood of the addicted is splattered on their hands! 

I was a child when I became an addict.  Most of us were. 

I am not going to argue disagree or think about it.  I studied it, I am at war with them for the rest of my life.  My mind is made up. 

This terrorist organization is responsible for the deaths of 3million people a year. 

Anyone who sympathizes, understands or doesn't hold tobacco to account for their acts to addict children to their product is not my friend.  I don't bullshit.  In this life if you take a stand, you will have enemies. 

I stand tall and UST is my ENIMY!  Yes I chose to dip.  A little child may also chose to go to the nice mans van to see his puppies too!  I blame them for deceiving me as a child to get me addicted for life. 

Those fuckers kidnaped my spirit and my potential.  Lookup Stockholm Syndrome.  It's time to embrace the suck and see the reality of the tobacco industry.

Although I respect the thought, I believe mark's argument suffers from something like the "straw man" fallacy. At any rate, we have here, in my opinion, two separate questions: "Who is ulitimately respnsible?" And "does UST and the like cross moral, if not legal boundaries?"

My answer to the first question is ME. One good reason to take this view is that any other view puts you in a situation where your fate is not even worth wasting though on. It's pointless. The Lord gave me the responsibility to accept Him or not, so I can't imagine He didn't give me the same ability when it came to tobacco. My answer to the second question is "yes.". But they (big tobacco) are only a little worse than every billion calorie snack that plasters "LOW FAT!!" and a picture of a superhero on the wrapper. Statistically, I'll bet pushing marketing apple juice on children does as much harm overall as tobacco marketing.

And I understand what you are insinuating by saying about "became an addict as a child.". But statistics don't bear this out. Unless you consider 20.1 years old a child.

Just for the record, I am NOT defending big tobacco. And yes, if you have the longer version, PM it to me. Or post it hear, its OK with me. I'm up for a good discussion. Lord knows my brain needs exercise!

If this is true, let's remove the ability of states and the feds to tax the shit out of tobacco and vacate the suits and return the billions in damages. Let's let them resume magazine, billboard, and bring back TV ads! We've wrongly persecuted and victimized that industry, users have been in control all along.

What a revelation, everyone is in control now! I'm buying tobacco stock!

Sorry for the Sarcasm, Zam, but I'm bitter about this topic.

:)

Hey guys, I get it. But my point comes back to this: if the scenario you sarcastically mock happens, am I doomed to a life of nicotine? Should I just sigh, walk down to the c-store and stop fighting the inevitable? Or do I stand up and say FUCK YOU, as KTC has reminded me is my option.

For me the only emotional part of this discussion is the exasperation I feel when someone wants to go to war with UST (which I get), but without a thought gives their cash daily to support the local nic pusher when they buy gas or groceries. .. When someone demands some lawsuit on a faceless entity but won't confront the lady in the checkout line next to them about them teaching their kids to be good future addicts.