6 Days Out

[Skoal Monster]

I think you underestimate the power of an addictive mind.

I don't underestimate addiction, I've been there.

But some people on this site overestimate tobacco marketing these days. As a result of blaming it on The Man, they cede their own accountability and personal choice. Sad.

I wholly confess that I myself caused my addiction. I also admit that my previous stoppages were caused by none other than me. I was an arrogant bastard that didn't realize that my choices were limiting my life and my ability to see the impacts I was having on others.

I underestimated the power of addiction only because I at the time did not believe I was an addict.

true nuff

[Pinched]

I think you underestimate the power of an addictive mind.

I don't underestimate addiction, I've been there.

But some people on this site overestimate tobacco marketing these days. As a result of blaming it on The Man, they cede their own accountability and personal choice. Sad.

I wholly confess that I myself caused my addiction. I also admit that my previous stoppages were caused by none other than me. I was an arrogant bastard that didn't realize that my choices were limiting my life and my ability to see the impacts I was having on others.

I underestimated the power of addiction only because I at the time did not believe I was an addict.

[FkSkoal]

I think you underestimate the power of an addictive mind.

I don't underestimate addiction, I've been there.

But some people on this site overestimate tobacco marketing these days. As a result of blaming it on The Man, they cede their own accountability and personal choice. Sad.

[Skoal Monster]

On the trophy tin............

hang a needle full of temptation from the neck of a junkie?

ask an alcoholic to keep some booze around?

It's like asking a Labrador to hold your steak. He may not eat it , but he's sure gonna drool a little bit, and would've been much happier had you not interrupted his chewing of the neighbors cat to dry hump him with a undercooked Filet Mignon.

The problem with quitting nicotine is that the opponent to our success is ourselves, and we are some crafty little reptilian brained scheming addicts. The trophy tin is a beautifully crafted two part "use rationalization" . The first part is allowing oneself to believe that, keeping the substance of addiction within arms reach, somehow helps gain power over ones addiction. This was scientifically proven to be donkey apples by a team of chimpanzees and a guy named Sven. This battle is with your mind, not a substance. Keeping that substance in minds eye and arms reach creates an opportunity for failure. Which leads us to the second part of this piece of seriously poor judgment. It was a subtle trick to create the opportunity for failure ( the trophy tin) and now will come the inevitable tipping point. Perhaps a death in the family? bad diagnosis? divorce? get fired? cable out? long drive? doesn't matter, your nicotine addled cerebellum will think of something, and in that sorrow or joy or anger you will find your excuse to crack both the covenant of your quit and the seal on that tin.


Anecdotally I and my long term fellow Cult of the Quilting Quit Monks of Zassafras5 will tell you that more often than not a "trophy can" will indeed precipitate a cave. Now you must excuse me, I need to find my purple robe before the spaceship gets here .

sM

If someone is pre-disposed to caving, then what difference does it make if they have to go to their garage or walk up the block to buy the dip? A caver will find an excuse, no matter the circumstances.

Also, I was focused more on the EMPTY trophy tin which, to me, is no different than the HoF coin. It is a commemorative item for those who find strength in a tangible object which signified a turning point in his or her life.

I hear what your saying, However, all addicts are predisposed to caving especially in the beginning. Putting as much space between you and your substance of addiction is wise policy in general.

But an empty tin is not a "trophy can" , its just a piece of plastic. decorate your house with em if you want. Trophy can is a full Tin

12 year olds don't choose to be addicts, I started when US Tobacco sent me a free Tin in the mail. Got em all the time. Apple leaf was a favorite of mine. Tasted a lot like candy.

Earl Cambell used to be on TV telling me that shit was good mojo for athletes, I think I remember Walter Peyton as well.

Many of us here were hooked long before the surgeon general came out and declared that this shit causes cancer, hell cans didn't even have warnings on em back then.

They said it was safe.........................

liars.

I'm curious--

when it became pretty much established that tobacco-use causes cancer, did you quit immediately?

I chewed on the way home from my first biopsy, I was too far down the rabbit hole to care and I didn't know how to stop, but yes I tried. I think you underestimate the power of an addictive mind. Just my opinion

[FkSkoal]

On the trophy tin............

hang a needle full of temptation from the neck of a junkie?

ask an alcoholic to keep some booze around?

It's like asking a Labrador to hold your steak. He may not eat it , but he's sure gonna drool a little bit, and would've been much happier had you not interrupted his chewing of the neighbors cat to dry hump him with a undercooked Filet Mignon.

The problem with quitting nicotine is that the opponent to our success is ourselves, and we are some crafty little reptilian brained scheming addicts. The trophy tin is a beautifully crafted two part "use rationalization" . The first part is allowing oneself to believe that, keeping the substance of addiction within arms reach, somehow helps gain power over ones addiction. This was scientifically proven to be donkey apples by a team of chimpanzees and a guy named Sven. This battle is with your mind, not a substance. Keeping that substance in minds eye and arms reach creates an opportunity for failure. Which leads us to the second part of this piece of seriously poor judgment. It was a subtle trick to create the opportunity for failure ( the trophy tin) and now will come the inevitable tipping point. Perhaps a death in the family? bad diagnosis? divorce? get fired? cable out? long drive? doesn't matter, your nicotine addled cerebellum will think of something, and in that sorrow or joy or anger you will find your excuse to crack both the covenant of your quit and the seal on that tin.


Anecdotally I and my long term fellow Cult of the Quilting Quit Monks of Zassafras5 will tell you that more often than not a "trophy can" will indeed precipitate a cave. Now you must excuse me, I need to find my purple robe before the spaceship gets here .

sM

If someone is pre-disposed to caving, then what difference does it make if they have to go to their garage or walk up the block to buy the dip? A caver will find an excuse, no matter the circumstances.

Also, I was focused more on the EMPTY trophy tin which, to me, is no different than the HoF coin. It is a commemorative item for those who find strength in a tangible object which signified a turning point in his or her life.

I hear what your saying, However, all addicts are predisposed to caving especially in the beginning. Putting as much space between you and your substance of addiction is wise policy in general.

But an empty tin is not a "trophy can" , its just a piece of plastic. decorate your house with em if you want. Trophy can is a full Tin

12 year olds don't choose to be addicts, I started when US Tobacco sent me a free Tin in the mail. Got em all the time. Apple leaf was a favorite of mine. Tasted a lot like candy.

Earl Cambell used to be on TV telling me that shit was good mojo for athletes, I think I remember Walter Peyton as well.

Many of us here were hooked long before the surgeon general came out and declared that this shit causes cancer, hell cans didn't even have warnings on em back then.

They said it was safe.........................

liars.

I'm curious--

when it became pretty much established that tobacco-use causes cancer, did you quit immediately?

[FkSkoal]

It's the addiction that Kills by deteriorating the body, aside from the drunk driving aspect.........A slave is either born into slavery, or tricked into it. Any choice they may think they had was a truly uninformed choice. The choice is a guise.

I like how you just casually slip in, "aside from the drunk driving aspect." lol

That's kind of a big issue to just lightly acknowledge. At least tobacco users have the presence of mind and general courtesy to kill themselves and not take out others in the process.

In terms of slaves being born into slavery or tricked into it- that may be your experience from your own upbringing and whatever cultural norms existed at the time. But just know that it's not the case with everybody. As such, we should not assume that everyone on here "pretty much" has the same dipping history. We should not carelessly throw out random unfounded statistics that "90% of the time" users of dip start out this way and go that way.

My story is different and we should all talk to newcomers with the same blank slate mentality and not run them off the site for discussion of a trophy tin, a comfort tin, saving a pyramid of empties, following dippers on twitter or instagram, etc. Everyone internalizes the quit in their own way. There is no one size fits all, except for posting roll. That is the true value of this site. Everything else is a set of so-called vets throwing their weight around, playing psychologist, and not even willing to entertain other people's modes of coping mechanisms- especially during the withdrawal process. Notice how so many posts from vets on a newbies intro is really just the generic response "drink water...smokey mountain... sun flower seeds... links to your group... get numbers" blah blah blah. It's the same information over and over with very little dialogue on THAT person's particular set of circumstances. Because anything beyond that might actually get them into a shit storm of criticism to the point where they leave the site. That, to me, runs counter to what this site should be about.

And I'll bring this up only one more time because you keep ducking the question, but if marketing by big tobacco is so aggressive, and people really have no choice and choice is an illusion blah blah blah--- how do you explain those individuals who CHOOSE to never dip/smoke? How have they managed to escape the brainwashing and far-reaching tentacles of big bad tobacco? By simply ignoring these people - and ignoring the fact that tobacco use continues to decline in this country - we diminish their own accomplishments of making GOOD PERSONAL CHOICES and using SOUND JUDGMENT. Something we, as addicts, did not do.

We need to be held accountable for own actions instead of blaming some sign in a gas station which, by the way, has a disclaimer on it on big bold letters that says Continued use of this product will fucking kill you one day!

[Skoal Monster]

On the trophy tin............

hang a needle full of temptation from the neck of a junkie?

ask an alcoholic to keep some booze around?

It's like asking a Labrador to hold your steak. He may not eat it , but he's sure gonna drool a little bit, and would've been much happier had you not interrupted his chewing of the neighbors cat to dry hump him with a undercooked Filet Mignon.

The problem with quitting nicotine is that the opponent to our success is ourselves, and we are some crafty little reptilian brained scheming addicts. The trophy tin is a beautifully crafted two part "use rationalization" . The first part is allowing oneself to believe that, keeping the substance of addiction within arms reach, somehow helps gain power over ones addiction. This was scientifically proven to be donkey apples by a team of chimpanzees and a guy named Sven. This battle is with your mind, not a substance. Keeping that substance in minds eye and arms reach creates an opportunity for failure. Which leads us to the second part of this piece of seriously poor judgment. It was a subtle trick to create the opportunity for failure ( the trophy tin) and now will come the inevitable tipping point. Perhaps a death in the family? bad diagnosis? divorce? get fired? cable out? long drive? doesn't matter, your nicotine addled cerebellum will think of something, and in that sorrow or joy or anger you will find your excuse to crack both the covenant of your quit and the seal on that tin.


Anecdotally I and my long term fellow Cult of the Quilting Quit Monks of Zassafras5 will tell you that more often than not a "trophy can" will indeed precipitate a cave. Now you must excuse me, I need to find my purple robe before the spaceship gets here .

sM

If someone is pre-disposed to caving, then what difference does it make if they have to go to their garage or walk up the block to buy the dip? A caver will find an excuse, no matter the circumstances.

Also, I was focused more on the EMPTY trophy tin which, to me, is no different than the HoF coin. It is a commemorative item for those who find strength in a tangible object which signified a turning point in his or her life.

I hear what your saying, However, all addicts are predisposed to caving especially in the beginning. Putting as much space between you and your substance of addiction is wise policy in general.

But an empty tin is not a "trophy can" , its just a piece of plastic. decorate your house with em if you want. Trophy can is a full Tin

12 year olds don't choose to be addicts, I started when US Tobacco sent me a free Tin in the mail. Got em all the time. Apple leaf was a favorite of mine. Tasted a lot like candy.

Earl Cambell used to be on TV telling me that shit was good mojo for athletes, I think I remember Walter Peyton as well.

Many of us here were hooked long before the surgeon general came out and declared that this shit causes cancer, hell cans didn't even have warnings on em back then.

They said it was safe.........................

liars.

[FkSkoal]

It's the addiction that Kills by deteriorating the body, aside from the drunk driving aspect.........A slave is either born into slavery, or tricked into it. Any choice they may think they had was a truly uninformed choice. The choice is a guise.

I like how you just casually slip in, "aside from the drunk driving aspect." lol

That's kind of a big issue to just lightly acknowledge. At least tobacco users have the presence of mind and general courtesy to kill themselves and not take out others in the process.

In terms of slaves being born into slavery or tricked into it- that may be your experience from your own upbringing and whatever cultural norms existed at the time. But just know that it's not the case with everybody. As such, we should not assume that everyone on here "pretty much" has the same dipping history. We should not carelessly throw out random unfounded statistics that "90% of the time" users of dip start out this way and go that way.

My story is different and we should all talk to newcomers with the same blank slate mentality and not run them off the site for discussion of a trophy tin, a comfort tin, saving a pyramid of empties, following dippers on twitter or instagram, etc. Everyone internalizes the quit in their own way. There is no one size fits all, except for posting roll. That is the true value of this site. Everything else is a set of so-called vets throwing their weight around, playing psychologist, and not even willing to entertain other people's modes of coping mechanisms- especially during the withdrawal process. Notice how so many posts from vets on a newbies intro is really just the generic response "drink water...smokey mountain... sun flower seeds... links to your group... get numbers" blah blah blah. It's the same information over and over with very little dialogue on THAT person's particular set of circumstances. Because anything beyond that might actually get them into a shit storm of criticism to the point where they leave the site. That, to me, runs counter to what this site should be about.

And I'll bring this up only one more time because you keep ducking the question, but if marketing by big tobacco is so aggressive, how do you explain those individuals who CHOOSE to never dip/smoke? How have they managed to escape the brainwashing and far-reaching tentacles of big bad tobacco? By simply ignoring these people - and ignoring the fact that tobacco use continues to decline in this country - we diminish their own accomplishments of making GOOD PERSONAL CHOICES and using SOUND JUDGMENT. Something we, as addicts, did not do.

We need to be held accountable for own actions instead of blaming some sign in a gas station which, by the way, has a disclaimer on it on big bold letters that says Continued use of this product will fucking kill you one day!

[FkSkoal]

On the trophy tin............

hang a needle full of temptation from the neck of a junkie?

ask an alcoholic to keep some booze around?

It's like asking a Labrador to hold your steak. He may not eat it , but he's sure gonna drool a little bit, and would've been much happier had you not interrupted his chewing of the neighbors cat to dry hump him with a undercooked Filet Mignon.

The problem with quitting nicotine is that the opponent to our success is ourselves, and we are some crafty little reptilian brained scheming addicts. The trophy tin is a beautifully crafted two part "use rationalization" . The first part is allowing oneself to believe that, keeping the substance of addiction within arms reach, somehow helps gain power over ones addiction. This was scientifically proven to be donkey apples by a team of chimpanzees and a guy named Sven. This battle is with your mind, not a substance. Keeping that substance in minds eye and arms reach creates an opportunity for failure. Which leads us to the second part of this piece of seriously poor judgment. It was a subtle trick to create the opportunity for failure ( the trophy tin) and now will come the inevitable tipping point. Perhaps a death in the family? bad diagnosis? divorce? get fired? cable out? long drive? doesn't matter, your nicotine addled cerebellum will think of something, and in that sorrow or joy or anger you will find your excuse to crack both the covenant of your quit and the seal on that tin.


Anecdotally I and my long term fellow Cult of the Quilting Quit Monks of Zassafras5 will tell you that more often than not a "trophy can" will indeed precipitate a cave. Now you must excuse me, I need to find my purple robe before the spaceship gets here .

sM

If someone is pre-disposed to caving, then what difference does it make if they have to go to their garage or walk up the block to buy the dip? A caver will find an excuse, no matter the circumstances.

Also, I was focused more on the EMPTY trophy tin which, to me, is no different than the HoF coin. It is a commemorative item for those who find strength in a tangible object which signified a turning point in his or her life.

[Grizzlyhasclaws]

If you think that big tobacco is not aggressively marketing their product then you are simply mistaken.

Name another (legal) product that has equal or more legislation designed to limit and/or expunge its marketing tactics and I will humbly cede this debate.

No other product is comparable. No other product is so deadly yet so readily available and inexpensive. You're looking at it only on the surface. I implore you to look a little deeper.

As far as marketing tactics today: just look at the signage prevalent at convenience stores and gas stations. Maybe NYC is different. I haven't been there in a while.

As far as you denying tobacco being a cultural thing: read 80% of the guys' intro stories here and find out if their parents used tobacco, and ask what age they started using tobacco.

You're a university professor in NYC who chose tobacco addiction at age 25 from scratch (talk about an oxyMoron). I'm glad you're quit of course. And I will cede that you chose to poison yourself. Okay, it was your choice. You knew the long term health consequences. Did you really foresee the addiction part going into it though? If so, you are a rare bird. Regardless, it is my firmly held belief that in the vast majority of nicotine addiction cases there was no choice made such as yours. It is my contention that the majority of addicts started before the lawful age by being pressured by their peers or coerced through aggressive marketing tactics from the tobacco industry itself. Still going on..... CLICK THIS. They were never properly educated as to the addictive properties of tobacco, only the long term health consequences, and then only in some cases. And then again, when it comes to smokeless tobacco, there is a myth permeated throughout society that the risks are lower when compared to cigarettes. I hope you don't deny this. No one truly understands nicotine addiction until they've been there. Most tobacco users are are in the lower income strata of society and don't receive high quality guidance or education. Tobacco is a scourge on humanity, the product is lining the pockets of corporate executives, consultants, lobbyists, and politicians with no end in sight. READ THIS . Denying the tobacco scourge is akin to denying other catastrophic atrocities in recent human history which I won't mention here for the purpose of remaining respectful and keeping the argument focused on tobacco. But I will assume that you know what I am alluding to, and the annoying tinfoil hat wearing fools who deny it.

For more education on this matter, and if you really don't think the tobacco industry is a big bad wolf so to speak, please watch this very eye opening video: youtube

These evil fuckers must be stopped. Your young child is directly in their crosshairs. Your young child is profit to them.

Bottom line is this. Once you start it is extremely hard to quit. We are rare heroes here at KTC. In fact, most who come to quit at KTC end up failing. It's those who stick around and who "drink the koolaid" that achieve success. The average life expectancy of a tobacco user is 20 years lower than a non-tobacco user. The companies selling this product will payoff whoever it takes to keep it legal and readily available. Despite the fact that this product is the #1 cause of preventable death in the world. I'm a capitalist, but tobacco industry is pure evil. If there is a hell they will surely burn in it.

In terms of no product being comparable- what about alcohol? Arguably worse because dipping only kills the user, whereas alcohol has the potential to kill the user as well as anyone else who happens to be driving on the road at the same time.

You are right about tobacco being a cultural thing. I realize that I am the exception, not the rule.

But in terms of marketing, I would hardly consider gas station signage aggressive marketing.

And what about the people who actively choose to never use tobacco in any form? You keep avoiding that question. How have they managed to escape the brainwashing and so-called aggressive marketing of big tobacco?

My thing is this: blaming big tobacco for the situations WE put OURSELVES in is a victim mentality to which I refuse to subscribe- especially when so much legislation has been enacted to limit its impact. By not acknowledging personal choice, it is as if we are just washing our hands of the whole deal, Pontius Pilate style. Not with it.

*Edit: will watch the video when I get home!

The legislation is largely pandering. There are scientific studies that are actually funded by the tobacco industry. It's smoke and mirrors. Signage and product placement on every corner store and gas station is aggressive in my view. Just as aggressive as the TV and Magazine advertisements of yore. Pop up ads on the internet are also unregulated. Sure billboards have been banned in the U.S. Sure, alcohol is a somewhat culpable industry. But the addictive properties of alcohol are the inverse of nicotine, literally. 10% of alcohol users are addicted, while 90% of nicotine users are addicted. It's the addiction that Kills by deteriorating the body, aside from the drunk driving aspect. I am not a victim. All of us who choose to educate ourselves on the consequences and addictive effects of nicotine can no longer claim to be a victim. We are awake now. We can never go back and claim to be a victim of the tobacco industry, because we have been educated by this no-nonsense place called KTC. That is why cavers/retreads are so reviled in this place. They chose to be victims after having been the gift of of this program handed to them for free on a silver platter. You are correct in that sense. Where I believe you are wrong is when it comes to the uneducated masses out there. Not just in the U.S. either. But if you focus on the U.S. and you look at major inner-cities and poor rural communities, tobacco use is everywhere. Underage use is rampant. The known edict of tobacco companies is to hook 'em young. The younger the better. Legislation and regulation are largely unenforceable. Advertising is prevalent on every street corner. Tobacco is for sale on every street corner. It is horribly addictive and kills it's users. Young people do not make informed choices, I'm sorry. I have an 11 yo, a 6 yo, and a 5 yo. If I smoked and chewed tobacco in front of them on a daily basis do they have a choice? Does an 11 year old have a choice? Are they educated or smart enough to have a choice? Sure they may get a few lessons in school regarding the negative health effects. Do they know the addiction properties before they first try it? It literally hooks people, especially young people, very early on. Literally in the first pack/can a user becomes hooked, at an extremely high rate. Much higher than alcohol. That's the whole problem. Because of the addictive properties it leaves people with no choice in the matter. People feel like they can't function/live without it, 90% of the users in fact. It is extremely addictive. Way more addictive than alcohol, it's not even comparable. Granted alcohol addiction is extremely devastating. I've lived/live with alcohols. It's terrible. But I have lived/live with 10 times as many nicotine addicts. It is a scourge. Look at those gas station signs. Really look at them. Think back to 100 days ago before you came here. You are free thanks to this place. Time to look upon your former master and see it for what it is. A slave doesn't choose bondage. A slave is either born into slavery, or tricked into it. Any choice they may think they had was a truly uninformed choice. The choice is a guise.

[Skoal Monster]

On the trophy tin............

hang a needle full of temptation from the neck of a junkie?

ask an alcoholic to keep some booze around?

It's like asking a Labrador to hold your steak. He may not eat it , but he's sure gonna drool a little bit, and would've been much happier had you not interrupted his chewing of the neighbors cat to dry hump him with a undercooked Filet Mignon.

The problem with quitting nicotine is that the opponent to our success is ourselves, and we are some crafty little reptilian brained scheming addicts. The trophy tin is a beautifully crafted two part "use rationalization" . The first part is allowing oneself to believe that, keeping the substance of addiction within arms reach, somehow helps gain power over ones addiction. This was scientifically proven to be donkey apples by a team of chimpanzees and a guy named Sven. This battle is with your mind, not a substance. Keeping that substance in minds eye and arms reach creates an opportunity for failure. Which leads us to the second part of this piece of seriously poor judgment. It was a subtle trick to create the opportunity for failure ( the trophy tin) and now will come the inevitable tipping point. Perhaps a death in the family? bad diagnosis? divorce? get fired? cable out? long drive? doesn't matter, your nicotine addled cerebellum will think of something, and in that sorrow or joy or anger you will find your excuse to crack both the covenant of your quit and the seal on that tin.


Anecdotally I and my long term fellow Cult of the Quilting Quit Monks of Zassafras5 will tell you that more often than not a "trophy can" will indeed precipitate a cave. Now you must excuse me, I need to find my purple robe before the spaceship gets here .

sM

[FkSkoal]

If you think that big tobacco is not aggressively marketing their product then you are simply mistaken.

Name another (legal) product that has equal or more legislation designed to limit and/or expunge its marketing tactics and I will humbly cede this debate.

No other product is comparable. No other product is so deadly yet so readily available and inexpensive. You're looking at it only on the surface. I implore you to look a little deeper.

As far as marketing tactics today: just look at the signage prevalent at convenience stores and gas stations. Maybe NYC is different. I haven't been there in a while.

As far as you denying tobacco being a cultural thing: read 80% of the guys' intro stories here and find out if their parents used tobacco, and ask what age they started using tobacco.

You're a university professor in NYC who chose tobacco addiction at age 25 from scratch (talk about an oxyMoron). I'm glad you're quit of course. And I will cede that you chose to poison yourself. Okay, it was your choice. You knew the long term health consequences. Did you really foresee the addiction part going into it though? If so, you are a rare bird. Regardless, it is my firmly held belief that in the vast majority of nicotine addiction cases there was no choice made such as yours. It is my contention that the majority of addicts started before the lawful age by being pressured by their peers or coerced through aggressive marketing tactics from the tobacco industry itself. Still going on..... CLICK THIS. They were never properly educated as to the addictive properties of tobacco, only the long term health consequences, and then only in some cases. And then again, when it comes to smokeless tobacco, there is a myth permeated throughout society that the risks are lower when compared to cigarettes. I hope you don't deny this. No one truly understands nicotine addiction until they've been there. Most tobacco users are are in the lower income strata of society and don't receive high quality guidance or education. Tobacco is a scourge on humanity, the product is lining the pockets of corporate executives, consultants, lobbyists, and politicians with no end in sight. READ THIS . Denying the tobacco scourge is akin to denying other catastrophic atrocities in recent human history which I won't mention here for the purpose of remaining respectful and keeping the argument focused on tobacco. But I will assume that you know what I am alluding to, and the annoying tinfoil hat wearing fools who deny it.

For more education on this matter, and if you really don't think the tobacco industry is a big bad wolf so to speak, please watch this very eye opening video: youtube

These evil fuckers must be stopped. Your young child is directly in their crosshairs. Your young child is profit to them.

Bottom line is this. Once you start it is extremely hard to quit. We are rare heroes here at KTC. In fact, most who come to quit at KTC end up failing. It's those who stick around and who "drink the koolaid" that achieve success. The average life expectancy of a tobacco user is 20 years lower than a non-tobacco user. The companies selling this product will payoff whoever it takes to keep it legal and readily available. Despite the fact that this product is the #1 cause of preventable death in the world. I'm a capitalist, but tobacco industry is pure evil. If there is a hell they will surely burn in it.

In terms of no product being comparable- what about alcohol? Arguably worse because dipping only kills the user, whereas alcohol has the potential to kill the user as well as anyone else who happens to be driving on the road at the same time.

You are right about tobacco being a cultural thing. I realize that I am the exception, not the rule.

But in terms of marketing, I would hardly consider gas station signage aggressive marketing.

And what about the people who actively choose to never use tobacco in any form? You keep avoiding that question. How have they managed to escape the brainwashing and so-called aggressive marketing of big tobacco?

My thing is this: blaming big tobacco for the situations WE put OURSELVES in is a victim mentality to which I refuse to subscribe- especially when so much legislation has been enacted to limit its impact. By not acknowledging personal choice, it is as if we are just washing our hands of the whole deal, Pontius Pilate style. Not with it.

*Edit: will watch the video when I get home!

[Grizzlyhasclaws]

If you think that big tobacco is not aggressively marketing their product then you are simply mistaken.

Name another (legal) product that has equal or more legislation designed to limit and/or expunge its marketing tactics and I will humbly cede this debate.

No other product is comparable. No other product is so deadly yet so readily available and inexpensive. You're looking at it only on the surface. I implore you to look a little deeper.

As far as marketing tactics today: just look at the signage prevalent at convenience stores and gas stations. Maybe NYC is different. I haven't been there in a while.

As far as you denying tobacco being a cultural thing: read 80% of the guys' intro stories here and find out if their parents used tobacco, and ask what age they started using tobacco.

You're a university professor in NYC who chose tobacco addiction at age 25 from scratch (talk about an oxyMoron). I'm glad you're quit of course. And I will cede that you chose to poison yourself. Okay, it was your choice. You knew the long term health consequences. Did you really foresee the addiction part going into it though? If so, you are a rare bird. Regardless, it is my firmly held belief that in the vast majority of nicotine addiction cases there was no choice made such as yours. It is my contention that the majority of addicts started before the lawful age by being pressured by their peers or coerced through aggressive marketing tactics from the tobacco industry itself. Still going on..... CLICK THIS. They were never properly educated as to the addictive properties of tobacco, only the long term health consequences, and then only in some cases. And then again, when it comes to smokeless tobacco, there is a myth permeated throughout society that the risks are lower when compared to cigarettes. I hope you don't deny this. No one truly understands nicotine addiction until they've been there. Most tobacco users are are in the lower income strata of society and don't receive high quality guidance or education. Tobacco is a scourge on humanity, the product is lining the pockets of corporate executives, consultants, lobbyists, and politicians with no end in sight. READ THIS . Denying the tobacco scourge is akin to denying other catastrophic atrocities in recent human history which I won't mention here for the purpose of remaining respectful and keeping the argument focused on tobacco. But I will assume that you know what I am alluding to, and the annoying tinfoil hat wearing fools who deny it.

For more education on this matter, and if you really don't think the tobacco industry is a big bad wolf so to speak, please watch this very eye opening video: youtube

These evil fuckers must be stopped. Your young child is directly in their crosshairs. Your young child is profit to them.

Bottom line is this. Once you start it is extremely hard to quit. We are rare heroes here at KTC. In fact, most who come to quit at KTC end up failing. It's those who stick around and who "drink the koolaid" that achieve success. The average life expectancy of a tobacco user is 20 years lower than a non-tobacco user. The companies selling this product will payoff whoever it takes to keep it legal and readily available. Despite the fact that this product is the #1 cause of preventable death in the world. I'm a capitalist, but tobacco industry is pure evil. If there is a hell they will surely burn in it.

[FkSkoal]

If you think that big tobacco is not aggressively marketing their product then you are simply mistaken.

Name another (legal) product that has equal or more legislation designed to limit and/or expunge its marketing tactics and I will humbly cede this debate.

[FkSkoal]

Sorry to butt into this 2 person conversation. FKS - 75 days. That's strong. I see you hitting the hall and bolting. Prove me wrong. Hope you stay quit, seriously.

And what have I done/said specifically to make you think that?